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joshbrahm
"MinorityStress" has now been banned for completely violating the comments policy.
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nobrownmms
Thanks! Jesus himself couldn't have put it more eloquently!
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nobrownmms
but does not apply the same standard when a conservative group is attacked.
Well, I'd like to apply the same standard, but how many times has a conservative group been attacked? You have that 1 guy you give as an example. And?
OK, how about PUBLICLY proclaiming conservatives to be killed? ... crickets?
Oh, there must be an example similar to Christian preachers who were overjoyed that gays got gunned down in Orlando (Rodrigo Jimenez, Pastor Anderson), or who called for governmental extermination of gays (Pastor Anderson) or who called for gays to be put on a desert island to die (Pastor Worley), or who travelled to Africa to help write the "Kill the Gays" legislation (Pastor Lively) or who .... well, you get the idea.
Countless bombings of clinics, harassment of doctors and patients, shootings. So how many times has a Christian-run equivalent been bombed or shot up?
I'd like to apply the same standard, but there just hasn't been any cases to apply it to.
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ModesteViolette
IDK, maybe the BLM inspired Dallas cop killings just a few months ago. Or the BLM motivated cop killings in New York last year. Or the murder of Jim Pouillon. Just googling "abortion protesters run over" brings up dozens of articles and youtube videos showing just that, with pro choice outlets like Jezebel cheering on the violence. Hell I generally support BLM. but if you are gonna blame all pro-lifers for events like the PP shooting, in order to be logically consistent you have to blame all BLMers for the Dallas and New York cop killings.
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nobrownmms
The cop killings are certainly not justified, no matter how many times the police are proven to have planted evidence or lied about shooting because they were charged at or had their gun stolen (kudos by-stander video and bodycams) nor how many times they roll-up to a 12-year old boy and open fire on him in less than 2 seconds. I agree with you there. Most cops are good cops, and there are even many within the ranks who call out the bad cops.
And certainly one shouldn't cheer protesters getting run over, no matter how much they harass you, as you have told me that there are protesters who do indeed harass in another thread. But I don't see pro-choice leaders actually calling for violence in the way that there are some that do on the pro-life side.
And of course, Mr. MinorityStress up above does a tremendous job in wishing me death because he thinks I'm gay. Sad to say, this is not the first time I've seen the Godly pro-life types say something like this, and probably one of the main reasons I'm having a hard time dissociating pro-life from homophobic, Christian bigotry.
BTW, I'm not blaming the guy who shot-up a PP clinic (yet again) on you guys, even though he was mumbling something about baby parts, the new buzzword in your circle that seems to persist despite 20 or so states having investigated and found nothing to substantiate the claims. He was probably crazy, and this just pushed him over the edge. Of course, it seems pretty clear that had not fake videos been put out, this wouldn't have happened, but no, its not your fault at all.
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ModesteViolette
also, isn't it funny that PP never sued CMP for libel? I mean, they went after them in court for using fake IDs, and that case was dropped. But they never sued for libel. Why not? I mean, if what you say is true and the videos are faked, why not sue for libel?
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ModesteViolette
Uh-huh. You never have apologized for completely misjudging me and how i have tried to stop the harassing street preacher outside of my local clinic.
And yeah, I am very sorry for the homophobia. however, I have a hard time distinguishing pro-choicers from ableist bigotry. After all, your side is currently exploiting ableist prejudice about people with microcephaly to legalize abortion in other countries and to legalize late term abortion in certain US states. Even disabled pro-choicers have called out this disgusting use of prejudice. The fact that you seem not to care that ableism is present throughout the medical community, and affects our right to life, not only before birth but after as well, and that so many "pro-choice" doctors pressure parents to abort for fetal abnormalities that entire support groups are filled up with parents dealing with it, shows me the true depth of your character.
And you may not be aware, but there is still a federal house investigation of the PP tapes. And both the PP and the Alliance Defending Freedom paid for forensic analyses showed no evidence of video manipulation. ADF report found no substantial evidence of any manipulation. http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/9764
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/planned-parenthood-undercover-videos-report-finds-manipulation-121800.html
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nobrownmms
OK, so I apologize for misjudging you and it is admirable that you told the street preacher to STFU. But the whole idea that you put forth: a pro-life woman is in danger if she goes to a PP because she'll be harassed by pro-lifers... still sounds boundlessly stupid. To that I say... cry me a river. Maybe pro-lifers shouldn't have started a movement of directly protesting to patients going to PP, and thereby inviting the crazies to have direct access to patients, in the first place.
your side
I'm not necessarily a pro-choicer in the US mold. I go more the way of Europe and Japan, and think that the procedure should be restricted, and there should be no late-term abortions unless medically necessary.
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ModesteViolette
Also, can you point out any well respected members of the anti-abortion movement that have advocated for vigilante violence against abortion providers?
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ModesteViolette
and Black Lives Matter protests have often turned into riots in places like Baltimore, Ferguson, and Milwaukie. Should BLM activists not protest at all then, since the protest might turn into a riot which harms people and destroys the neighborhood?
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nobrownmms
No, go ahead and protest all you want.
I'm just saying stop complaining about the possibility that you yourself will now be on the receiving end of the same protests that you're gladly taking part in now.
turned into riots
And white college students riot, oh I'm sorry "party", when their school football team loses, turning over cop cars and setting shit on fire. White people being unruly == "party" or "boys will be boys". Black people being unruly == "riot by thugs".
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-latest-kentucky-riot-is-part-of-a-long-destructive-sports-tradition/
But I digress. BLM is irrelevant to this discussion, even though now even Donald Trump is saying he's "Troubled" by the recent Tulsa shooting. I'm saying stop making yourself out to be a victim of the very protest that you're currently a part of. It sounds dumb.
The analogy isn't BLM protesting. Rather, its a BLM protester who was out protesting the night before, going the next morning to catch the bus, finding the roads closed because of the burned out cars and such, and complaining about the state of his/her city. I'm not saying pro-lifers don't have a right to protest (though going up to individuals and screaming at them doesn't really seem like protest, but I digress again). Protest and partake in your hobby all you want. I'm saying then complaining about the state of affairs your protests have brought about, that these clinics aren't safe because you'll get harassed.... um, I shed crocodile tears.
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ModesteViolette
Uh-huh. If we weren't out there, holding up signs that say "You and your child are both loved", crazy hateful street preacher guy would still be there. The harassment would still be there, but the kids who are alive today who were saved by our peaceful protest would not be.
You assume that i don't support BLM. I do. I also support their right to protest. And if a peaceful BLM protester complains about the burned down buildings in his neighborhood because of the riots, he has every right to, because he was peacefully protesting an injustice, not burning down those buildings. He has every right to decry rioting while promoting peaceful protest of police brutality. And he shouldn't be told to stop his peaceful protests because others might escalate the situation into a riot, since the alternative is ignoring blatant injustice.
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Crystal
That is so gross; I've always hated these baby-jokes.
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Crystal
"You are so full of hubris and exaggerated self-importance."
I must respectfully disagree with you. I have had an email correspondence of sorts with this guy, and he's the total opposite of what you said. He nearly always responds to his emails (unlike most of us!), and acknowledges people. He's treated me with nothing but kindness and I would be honoured to make his further acquaintance if ever I get the chance.
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joshbrahm
Obliged.
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joshbrahm
I have a hard time imagining that I would be able to find common ground and have a productive dialogue with somebody who thinks I ought to be classified as a "domestic terrorist."
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Crystal
Hi, you just talked to my abuser:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/12/the-word-is-rape.html
Scroll down the Newest button on that article and look at what he did to me. He screwed with my mind, Josh.
Then he tried pulling this same crp on me on this page:
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2015/12/donald-trump-is-disaster-waiting-to.html
If it hadn't been for two very good friends going to bat for me I would have been emotionally devastated. I've taken your advice; we haven't exchanged *a word since that incident.
Also, even before that, he was making inappropriate comments to me on YOUR website, saying things like "I wouldn't want to procreate with you" and casting doubt on some of my words. How would you react if I told you I didn't want to procreate with you?
You're lucky he didn't try screwing with your mind the way he did with me, and I think he did it because I am PL.
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joshbrahm
James, I'm banning you and IrrationalHumanBeing for calling each other names on multiple occasions. Absolutely a violation of our comments policy.
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Crystal
Another point - I respect the general commentariat at the site where I had that small confrontation, because the high majority of them have treated me with respect despite my strong stances on the matter, and I am willing to acknowledge that. However, a very small handful have been hostile and, while I respect them as people, I disagree with them and don't have much to do with them as I'd rather talk to the majority, who at least respect me despite their disagreements with my views.
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Crystal
Again, this is how I see it, James.
Legally speaking, abortion isn't murder. But it should be made illegal so that unborn persons are protected.
Morally speaking, however, it IS and I have no problem saying that without apology; I have gotten into trouble for this on more than one occasion. I'm not sorry for that.
This is what I said once, and it earned me brownie points for intolerance:
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/friendlyatheist1/if_the_gop_defunded_planned_parenthood_this_is_how_americans_would_suffer/#comment-2203901557
My point is that I try to remember this: Loving, truthful people are almost always more persuasive than unloving, truthful people. I would rather turn people away from belief in abortion than ridicule them for it. Sometimes, people believe in abortion because they have heard no other way and it's my job to let them know, there is another way. How am I going to communicate that if I am hostile to the people? The action, however, deserves righteous anger; I agree with you there and I admire your desire to speak out on behalf of the unborn. I hope this helps you understand better where I am coming from. I have no desire to compromise on the topic but rather to reach people with the truth and challenge them to think, and the best way to do that is to be respectful.
That being said, in a way I agree with you. The PL movement has made a shoddy job of things and it's time we manned up and spoke about the action in the strongest of terms.
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lady_black

Does this look like a baby to you?
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joshbrahm
Fair question. No, it doesn't look like a baby to me.
That's why I'm not pro-life because I get warm, fuzzy feelings when I look at an embryo. I don't. I'm pro-life because one of the strongest beliefs I have is that all human adults should have an equal right to life, and when I try to make sense of that view, I come to believe that it must be because we all have something in common, something that we have equally.
Most pro-choice people I talk to think that thing is something like sentience, self-awareness, viability, or something similar. The problem with all of the pro-choice definitions I've heard is they either would give the equal right to life to lower mammals like squirrels, and/or they would exclude newborns from having an equal right to life.
I think having the intrinsic ability to think and act morally is the thing that ACTUALLY makes us equal. But that's a rational view, not an emotional one.
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lady_black
We do not all have an "intrinsic" ability to think and act morally, and no, we are not all equal.
I'm very cautious to label anything with "intrinsic value" because value is highly situational. Just as an example of that, were I to have a choice between being marooned away from civilization with a) the Hope Diamond, or b) a magnifying glass, I would find the magnifying glass to be of much greater value than the gemstone. Priceless items in such a situation quickly become "just another pebble."
Adult women are of more value than any hundred fetuses, and that's just how it is.
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joshbrahm
An intrinsic ability is not the potential to develop an ability, it’s an ability that you have in virtue of the kind of thing you are. I believe that all humans, because of the kind of thing they are, are naturally ordered toward developing the ability to think and act morally, and that is what matters.
You can certainly argue that that intrinsic ability is NOT something that matters morally, but arguing that not everybody has that intrinsic ability seems to me to be a losing argument.
Your paragraph about intrinsic value is confusing to me, because you say that value is situational, and then describe the case where two items have different instrumental value depending on the situation. So we certainly agree about the thought experiment you made, but it's not about intrinsic value. Intrinsic value is the idea that something has value because of the kind of thing it is. Instrumental value is when something has value because somebody else values it, like dollar bills, or a magnifying glass.
So when you assert that "adult women are more valuable than any hundred fetuses," I would ask you what you mean by "value." Presumably you mean "instrumental value," because it doesn't look like you meant "intrinsic value" in anything you said. I would agree that an adult woman has more instrumental value than any hundred fetuses. I would however argue that all people have equal intrinsic value, because people are things with serious moral status.
I think most likely the main area where we disagree is I think a human fetus is a person, and you don't. I'm glad to discuss that. I know that fetuses are not clear cases of persons for many people.
I'm open to the argument that some people are more intrinsically valuable than others, but it'll be pretty hard to convince me, because one of the strongest views I have is that all people are equally intrinsically valuable.
*Enjoying the discussion, but forgive me if I don't respond quickly in the next few weeks. We're about to leave for two trips, and won't be able to access my computer very much during them. :)
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lady_black
Women are more valuable than fetuses both instrumentally and intrinsically. And seriously, how much "naturally ordered ability to think and act morally" does your 18 month old have? Or even a three year old? Because some humans will never progress past that point in development. And I would never chose to deliberately bring one of those into the world. That wouldn't be loving. It's difficult enough to deal with children that you don't lay awake at night worrying about what will become of them when you die. That would be a horrible burden to inflict on someone without the means to do it.
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joshbrahm
"Women are more valuable than fetuses both instrumentally and intrinsically."
A huge part of the debate hinges upon that question. I'm more interested in arguments for a view versus merely asserting a view.
My argument that both have the same intrinsic value is that I don't think we can make sense of human equality in a way that makes sense without excluding the unborn. I want to know WHY all humans should have an equal right to life EXCEPT for the unborn, in a way that's not ad hoc. Every attempt I've seen by pro-choice people to define personhood as something like sentience or self-awareness or viability has at least one of two problems: they either give an equal right to life to lower mammals like squirrels, or they exclude obvious cases of persons like newborns.
Again, I want to hear your argument for why the unborn aren't persons, but simply asserting that women are more valuable isn't enough.
"And seriously, how much 'naturally ordered ability to think and act morally' does your 18 month old have?"
You misquoted me. I said, "I believe that all humans, because of the kind of thing they are, are naturally ordered toward developing the ability to think and act morally, and that is what matters."
The way you quoted me changes what we're talking about from an intrinsic ability to an immediate ability. It's worse than a strawman. It's literally quoting me as if I'm saying the OPPOSITE of what I'm saying.
I believe all humans, including fetuses, because of the kind of thing they are, are naturally ordered towards developing the ability to think and act morally, thus they have the intrinsic ability as soon as they are their own organism.
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Crystal
Actually I believe that non-humans deserve an equal right to life because how we treat animals today will determine how we treat humans in the future:
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" - Mahatma Ghandi
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
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lady_black
Because, sir, you do NOT have "a right to life." Only the right not to be unjustly killed.
I'd like to know why YOU think a fetus possesses a right you don't have, to wit, the right to take what you need to live from the body of another? Nobody has that right. Not you, not me, and not my born children. And before they were born, they had no such "right" either.
That's the crux of the issue. Answer the following question:
My body belongs to________.
a) You.
b) The state.
c) The church.
d) Anyone and everyone who "needs it."
e) Me.
Answer, using yourself, and you will have your answer.
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joshbrahm
I actually agree with your first sentence. When I say "right to life" I basically mean "the right to not be unjustly killed." So we're on the same page there.
My body belongs to me, but that doesn't give me the right to directly kill people with my body.
I don't think a mother is intrinsically obligated to carry her child up until birth. I know that sounds weird, but stay with me. If we could Star Trek beam the baby into an artificial womb that it could survive in, I'm fine with that. The problem is that the only alternative to her carrying her child until birth is intentionally destroying her child. Given our current technology, she has to carry the child but it's because of the alternatives. She cannot kill the unborn child. She cannot kill a born child who wants her kidney, though she can deny the kidney. She can unplug from the violinist, she may not take a machete to him.
I notice that you haven't responded to any of my arguments regarding human equality.
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lady_black
That's too damn bad. She doesn't need to use her body to sustain fetal life, or any life. And neither do you.
Abortion is more on point with unplugging the violinist. He will die. But he never had the right to use her body to sustain his life to begin with. That requires continuing consent.
I haven't addressed human equality, because it's irrelevant. We all EQUALLY have no right to level a claim to the body of another. How's that?
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joshbrahm
And this is where we disagree. I think the biggest disanalogy between Thomson's violinist story and at least most abortion methods is the difference between letting someone die of a kidney illness and directly killing another human being that you were responsible for creating.
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