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Georgedib
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joshbrahm
"MinorityStress" has now been banned for completely violating the comments policy.
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nobrownmms
Thanks! Jesus himself couldn't have put it more eloquently!
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nobrownmms
but does not apply the same standard when a conservative group is attacked.
Well, I'd like to apply the same standard, but how many times has a conservative group been attacked? You have that 1 guy you give as an example. And?
OK, how about PUBLICLY proclaiming conservatives to be killed? ... crickets?
Oh, there must be an example similar to Christian preachers who were overjoyed that gays got gunned down in Orlando (Rodrigo Jimenez, Pastor Anderson), or who called for governmental extermination of gays (Pastor Anderson) or who called for gays to be put on a desert island to die (Pastor Worley), or who travelled to Africa to help write the "Kill the Gays" legislation (Pastor Lively) or who .... well, you get the idea.
Countless bombings of clinics, harassment of doctors and patients, shootings. So how many times has a Christian-run equivalent been bombed or shot up?
I'd like to apply the same standard, but there just hasn't been any cases to apply it to.
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ModesteViolette
IDK, maybe the BLM inspired Dallas cop killings just a few months ago. Or the BLM motivated cop killings in New York last year. Or the murder of Jim Pouillon. Just googling "abortion protesters run over" brings up dozens of articles and youtube videos showing just that, with pro choice outlets like Jezebel cheering on the violence. Hell I generally support BLM. but if you are gonna blame all pro-lifers for events like the PP shooting, in order to be logically consistent you have to blame all BLMers for the Dallas and New York cop killings.
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nobrownmms
The cop killings are certainly not justified, no matter how many times the police are proven to have planted evidence or lied about shooting because they were charged at or had their gun stolen (kudos by-stander video and bodycams) nor how many times they roll-up to a 12-year old boy and open fire on him in less than 2 seconds. I agree with you there. Most cops are good cops, and there are even many within the ranks who call out the bad cops.
And certainly one shouldn't cheer protesters getting run over, no matter how much they harass you, as you have told me that there are protesters who do indeed harass in another thread. But I don't see pro-choice leaders actually calling for violence in the way that there are some that do on the pro-life side.
And of course, Mr. MinorityStress up above does a tremendous job in wishing me death because he thinks I'm gay. Sad to say, this is not the first time I've seen the Godly pro-life types say something like this, and probably one of the main reasons I'm having a hard time dissociating pro-life from homophobic, Christian bigotry.
BTW, I'm not blaming the guy who shot-up a PP clinic (yet again) on you guys, even though he was mumbling something about baby parts, the new buzzword in your circle that seems to persist despite 20 or so states having investigated and found nothing to substantiate the claims. He was probably crazy, and this just pushed him over the edge. Of course, it seems pretty clear that had not fake videos been put out, this wouldn't have happened, but no, its not your fault at all.
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ModesteViolette
also, isn't it funny that PP never sued CMP for libel? I mean, they went after them in court for using fake IDs, and that case was dropped. But they never sued for libel. Why not? I mean, if what you say is true and the videos are faked, why not sue for libel?
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ModesteViolette
Uh-huh. You never have apologized for completely misjudging me and how i have tried to stop the harassing street preacher outside of my local clinic.
And yeah, I am very sorry for the homophobia. however, I have a hard time distinguishing pro-choicers from ableist bigotry. After all, your side is currently exploiting ableist prejudice about people with microcephaly to legalize abortion in other countries and to legalize late term abortion in certain US states. Even disabled pro-choicers have called out this disgusting use of prejudice. The fact that you seem not to care that ableism is present throughout the medical community, and affects our right to life, not only before birth but after as well, and that so many "pro-choice" doctors pressure parents to abort for fetal abnormalities that entire support groups are filled up with parents dealing with it, shows me the true depth of your character.
And you may not be aware, but there is still a federal house investigation of the PP tapes. And both the PP and the Alliance Defending Freedom paid for forensic analyses showed no evidence of video manipulation. ADF report found no substantial evidence of any manipulation. http://www.adfmedia.org/News/PRDetail/9764
http://www.politico.com/story/2015/08/planned-parenthood-undercover-videos-report-finds-manipulation-121800.html
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nobrownmms
OK, so I apologize for misjudging you and it is admirable that you told the street preacher to STFU. But the whole idea that you put forth: a pro-life woman is in danger if she goes to a PP because she'll be harassed by pro-lifers... still sounds boundlessly stupid. To that I say... cry me a river. Maybe pro-lifers shouldn't have started a movement of directly protesting to patients going to PP, and thereby inviting the crazies to have direct access to patients, in the first place.
your side
I'm not necessarily a pro-choicer in the US mold. I go more the way of Europe and Japan, and think that the procedure should be restricted, and there should be no late-term abortions unless medically necessary.
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ModesteViolette
Also, can you point out any well respected members of the anti-abortion movement that have advocated for vigilante violence against abortion providers?
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ModesteViolette
and Black Lives Matter protests have often turned into riots in places like Baltimore, Ferguson, and Milwaukie. Should BLM activists not protest at all then, since the protest might turn into a riot which harms people and destroys the neighborhood?
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nobrownmms
No, go ahead and protest all you want.
I'm just saying stop complaining about the possibility that you yourself will now be on the receiving end of the same protests that you're gladly taking part in now.
turned into riots
And white college students riot, oh I'm sorry "party", when their school football team loses, turning over cop cars and setting shit on fire. White people being unruly == "party" or "boys will be boys". Black people being unruly == "riot by thugs".
http://fivethirtyeight.com/datalab/the-latest-kentucky-riot-is-part-of-a-long-destructive-sports-tradition/
But I digress. BLM is irrelevant to this discussion, even though now even Donald Trump is saying he's "Troubled" by the recent Tulsa shooting. I'm saying stop making yourself out to be a victim of the very protest that you're currently a part of. It sounds dumb.
The analogy isn't BLM protesting. Rather, its a BLM protester who was out protesting the night before, going the next morning to catch the bus, finding the roads closed because of the burned out cars and such, and complaining about the state of his/her city. I'm not saying pro-lifers don't have a right to protest (though going up to individuals and screaming at them doesn't really seem like protest, but I digress again). Protest and partake in your hobby all you want. I'm saying then complaining about the state of affairs your protests have brought about, that these clinics aren't safe because you'll get harassed.... um, I shed crocodile tears.
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ModesteViolette
Uh-huh. If we weren't out there, holding up signs that say "You and your child are both loved", crazy hateful street preacher guy would still be there. The harassment would still be there, but the kids who are alive today who were saved by our peaceful protest would not be.
You assume that i don't support BLM. I do. I also support their right to protest. And if a peaceful BLM protester complains about the burned down buildings in his neighborhood because of the riots, he has every right to, because he was peacefully protesting an injustice, not burning down those buildings. He has every right to decry rioting while promoting peaceful protest of police brutality. And he shouldn't be told to stop his peaceful protests because others might escalate the situation into a riot, since the alternative is ignoring blatant injustice.
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Crystal
That is so gross; I've always hated these baby-jokes.
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Crystal
"You are so full of hubris and exaggerated self-importance."
I must respectfully disagree with you. I have had an email correspondence of sorts with this guy, and he's the total opposite of what you said. He nearly always responds to his emails (unlike most of us!), and acknowledges people. He's treated me with nothing but kindness and I would be honoured to make his further acquaintance if ever I get the chance.
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joshbrahm
Obliged.
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joshbrahm
I have a hard time imagining that I would be able to find common ground and have a productive dialogue with somebody who thinks I ought to be classified as a "domestic terrorist."
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Crystal
Hi, you just talked to my abuser:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/12/the-word-is-rape.html
Scroll down the Newest button on that article and look at what he did to me. He screwed with my mind, Josh.
Then he tried pulling this same crp on me on this page:
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2015/12/donald-trump-is-disaster-waiting-to.html
If it hadn't been for two very good friends going to bat for me I would have been emotionally devastated. I've taken your advice; we haven't exchanged *a word since that incident.
Also, even before that, he was making inappropriate comments to me on YOUR website, saying things like "I wouldn't want to procreate with you" and casting doubt on some of my words. How would you react if I told you I didn't want to procreate with you?
You're lucky he didn't try screwing with your mind the way he did with me, and I think he did it because I am PL.
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joshbrahm
James, I'm banning you and IrrationalHumanBeing for calling each other names on multiple occasions. Absolutely a violation of our comments policy.
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Crystal
Another point - I respect the general commentariat at the site where I had that small confrontation, because the high majority of them have treated me with respect despite my strong stances on the matter, and I am willing to acknowledge that. However, a very small handful have been hostile and, while I respect them as people, I disagree with them and don't have much to do with them as I'd rather talk to the majority, who at least respect me despite their disagreements with my views.
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Crystal
Again, this is how I see it, James.
Legally speaking, abortion isn't murder. But it should be made illegal so that unborn persons are protected.
Morally speaking, however, it IS and I have no problem saying that without apology; I have gotten into trouble for this on more than one occasion. I'm not sorry for that.
This is what I said once, and it earned me brownie points for intolerance:
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/friendlyatheist1/if_the_gop_defunded_planned_parenthood_this_is_how_americans_would_suffer/#comment-2203901557
My point is that I try to remember this: Loving, truthful people are almost always more persuasive than unloving, truthful people. I would rather turn people away from belief in abortion than ridicule them for it. Sometimes, people believe in abortion because they have heard no other way and it's my job to let them know, there is another way. How am I going to communicate that if I am hostile to the people? The action, however, deserves righteous anger; I agree with you there and I admire your desire to speak out on behalf of the unborn. I hope this helps you understand better where I am coming from. I have no desire to compromise on the topic but rather to reach people with the truth and challenge them to think, and the best way to do that is to be respectful.
That being said, in a way I agree with you. The PL movement has made a shoddy job of things and it's time we manned up and spoke about the action in the strongest of terms.
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lady_black

Does this look like a baby to you?
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joshbrahm
Fair question. No, it doesn't look like a baby to me.
That's why I'm not pro-life because I get warm, fuzzy feelings when I look at an embryo. I don't. I'm pro-life because one of the strongest beliefs I have is that all human adults should have an equal right to life, and when I try to make sense of that view, I come to believe that it must be because we all have something in common, something that we have equally.
Most pro-choice people I talk to think that thing is something like sentience, self-awareness, viability, or something similar. The problem with all of the pro-choice definitions I've heard is they either would give the equal right to life to lower mammals like squirrels, and/or they would exclude newborns from having an equal right to life.
I think having the intrinsic ability to think and act morally is the thing that ACTUALLY makes us equal. But that's a rational view, not an emotional one.
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lady_black
We do not all have an "intrinsic" ability to think and act morally, and no, we are not all equal.
I'm very cautious to label anything with "intrinsic value" because value is highly situational. Just as an example of that, were I to have a choice between being marooned away from civilization with a) the Hope Diamond, or b) a magnifying glass, I would find the magnifying glass to be of much greater value than the gemstone. Priceless items in such a situation quickly become "just another pebble."
Adult women are of more value than any hundred fetuses, and that's just how it is.
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joshbrahm
An intrinsic ability is not the potential to develop an ability, it’s an ability that you have in virtue of the kind of thing you are. I believe that all humans, because of the kind of thing they are, are naturally ordered toward developing the ability to think and act morally, and that is what matters.
You can certainly argue that that intrinsic ability is NOT something that matters morally, but arguing that not everybody has that intrinsic ability seems to me to be a losing argument.
Your paragraph about intrinsic value is confusing to me, because you say that value is situational, and then describe the case where two items have different instrumental value depending on the situation. So we certainly agree about the thought experiment you made, but it's not about intrinsic value. Intrinsic value is the idea that something has value because of the kind of thing it is. Instrumental value is when something has value because somebody else values it, like dollar bills, or a magnifying glass.
So when you assert that "adult women are more valuable than any hundred fetuses," I would ask you what you mean by "value." Presumably you mean "instrumental value," because it doesn't look like you meant "intrinsic value" in anything you said. I would agree that an adult woman has more instrumental value than any hundred fetuses. I would however argue that all people have equal intrinsic value, because people are things with serious moral status.
I think most likely the main area where we disagree is I think a human fetus is a person, and you don't. I'm glad to discuss that. I know that fetuses are not clear cases of persons for many people.
I'm open to the argument that some people are more intrinsically valuable than others, but it'll be pretty hard to convince me, because one of the strongest views I have is that all people are equally intrinsically valuable.
*Enjoying the discussion, but forgive me if I don't respond quickly in the next few weeks. We're about to leave for two trips, and won't be able to access my computer very much during them. :)
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lady_black
Women are more valuable than fetuses both instrumentally and intrinsically. And seriously, how much "naturally ordered ability to think and act morally" does your 18 month old have? Or even a three year old? Because some humans will never progress past that point in development. And I would never chose to deliberately bring one of those into the world. That wouldn't be loving. It's difficult enough to deal with children that you don't lay awake at night worrying about what will become of them when you die. That would be a horrible burden to inflict on someone without the means to do it.
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joshbrahm
"Women are more valuable than fetuses both instrumentally and intrinsically."
A huge part of the debate hinges upon that question. I'm more interested in arguments for a view versus merely asserting a view.
My argument that both have the same intrinsic value is that I don't think we can make sense of human equality in a way that makes sense without excluding the unborn. I want to know WHY all humans should have an equal right to life EXCEPT for the unborn, in a way that's not ad hoc. Every attempt I've seen by pro-choice people to define personhood as something like sentience or self-awareness or viability has at least one of two problems: they either give an equal right to life to lower mammals like squirrels, or they exclude obvious cases of persons like newborns.
Again, I want to hear your argument for why the unborn aren't persons, but simply asserting that women are more valuable isn't enough.
"And seriously, how much 'naturally ordered ability to think and act morally' does your 18 month old have?"
You misquoted me. I said, "I believe that all humans, because of the kind of thing they are, are naturally ordered toward developing the ability to think and act morally, and that is what matters."
The way you quoted me changes what we're talking about from an intrinsic ability to an immediate ability. It's worse than a strawman. It's literally quoting me as if I'm saying the OPPOSITE of what I'm saying.
I believe all humans, including fetuses, because of the kind of thing they are, are naturally ordered towards developing the ability to think and act morally, thus they have the intrinsic ability as soon as they are their own organism.
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Crystal
Actually I believe that non-humans deserve an equal right to life because how we treat animals today will determine how we treat humans in the future:
"The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated" - Mahatma Ghandi
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
The greatness of a nation can be judged by the way its animals are treated.
Mahatma Gandhi
Read more at: http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/m/mahatmagan150700.html
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lady_black
Because, sir, you do NOT have "a right to life." Only the right not to be unjustly killed.
I'd like to know why YOU think a fetus possesses a right you don't have, to wit, the right to take what you need to live from the body of another? Nobody has that right. Not you, not me, and not my born children. And before they were born, they had no such "right" either.
That's the crux of the issue. Answer the following question:
My body belongs to________.
a) You.
b) The state.
c) The church.
d) Anyone and everyone who "needs it."
e) Me.
Answer, using yourself, and you will have your answer.
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joshbrahm
I actually agree with your first sentence. When I say "right to life" I basically mean "the right to not be unjustly killed." So we're on the same page there.
My body belongs to me, but that doesn't give me the right to directly kill people with my body.
I don't think a mother is intrinsically obligated to carry her child up until birth. I know that sounds weird, but stay with me. If we could Star Trek beam the baby into an artificial womb that it could survive in, I'm fine with that. The problem is that the only alternative to her carrying her child until birth is intentionally destroying her child. Given our current technology, she has to carry the child but it's because of the alternatives. She cannot kill the unborn child. She cannot kill a born child who wants her kidney, though she can deny the kidney. She can unplug from the violinist, she may not take a machete to him.
I notice that you haven't responded to any of my arguments regarding human equality.
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lady_black
That's too damn bad. She doesn't need to use her body to sustain fetal life, or any life. And neither do you.
Abortion is more on point with unplugging the violinist. He will die. But he never had the right to use her body to sustain his life to begin with. That requires continuing consent.
I haven't addressed human equality, because it's irrelevant. We all EQUALLY have no right to level a claim to the body of another. How's that?
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joshbrahm
And this is where we disagree. I think the biggest disanalogy between Thomson's violinist story and at least most abortion methods is the difference between letting someone die of a kidney illness and directly killing another human being that you were responsible for creating.
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Crystal
I hope you don't mind if I ask a clarification question here - do you believe that direct killing of the fetus via abortion = unplugging and asserting bodily autonomy?
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lady_black
Yes. That the fetus will not survive without her body is not her problem.
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Crystal
Thanks, now I understand where you are coming from better.
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burtmacklin283
A little late to the party here, but I felt compelled to post.
Only one problem here that derails the whole argument. The author and his brother implicitly acknowledge that there ARE circumstances where killing abortion practitioners are not only necessary, but morally justified (which is an inevitable conclusion given the language we use to describe abortion). They even lay out the circumstances necessary (a despotic nation, a state of war, when all alternatives have failed).
Here's the problem. Right wing politicians and demagogues are stating exactly that. That Obama is a terrorist or a muslim extremist, that at the end of his term he's going to usurp control of the government, that he's a manchurian candidate in league with muslim radicals...The language the Pro Life movement uses the language of war and implied despotism (holocaust, state sanctioned mass murder, etc.) You've got politicians, TV personalities, and Pastors stating that this is 'The End Times,' that we must take action now, that the great battle between good and evil is at hand.
So on the one hand you have a movement implying that drastic action is only acceptable in specific circumstances, and on the other you have TV personalities, religious leaders, and politicians all using language and imagery designed to stoke the imaginations of this specific audience into believing that those very circumstances are at hand.
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Anonymous
Necessary does not mean sufficient.
Necessary conditions: a despotic nation, a state of war, when all alternatives have failed.
Sufficient conditions: [none stated]
Definitely insufficient: Some street preacher with a cardboard sign saying the world is about to end, or a talk radio host calling the U.S. president a Muslim terrorist.
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burtmacklin283
You are ignoring the disproportionate influence media has on the perception of reality. If you aren't even going to factor that in, I can't take your comment seriously.
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Anonymous
Not really. Plenty of media personalities have called Donald Trump a fascist, compared him to Adolf Hitler and Lord Voldemort, and falsely claimed that ISIS is using his speeches to recruit terrorists. George W. Bush's critics regularly called him a Nazi and said that his administration was behind the 9/11 attacks. Idiots that equate the anti-abortion movement with the Taliban are awarded with airtime. You still don't get "let's start killing people!" out of that.
I can't take your comment seriously.
Ironic. I'm not the one blaming a lunatic's violent actions on a peaceful social movement.
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Anonymous
Yeah. Even if all that garbage were true, that comparison is still a big slap in the face to victims of actual terrorist movements. You should be ashamed.
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Crystal
I'm open-minded. I know some prolifers would like nothing more than to execute abortion practitioners and drive them into the ground. However, there are others who work peacefully to change laws. Most grassroots at least, and I think some of the leaders too, seek to save life rather than terrorise people. You and I belong in the latter category, and I'm proud to say Josh does as well :)
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acyutananda
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2386771601 I said let's suppose that the CMP had misrepresented Planned Parenthood as having broken laws, and asked:
"You have said that violence was (or would have been, if Dear in fact
became violent for that reason) a completely unreasonable response to
PP's being denounced as criminal. So apparently you would argue that
even having falsely branded PP as criminal (when it was not) would not
make the CMP culpable -- because even if PP is criminal, violence would
be a completely unreasonable response. Have I understood you correctly?"
Two weeks later, this occurs to me: I think that a person has some culpability even for an unreasonable response to what they said, if what they said was a lie that increased the chance (however small the chance might be) of the response that took place.
Probably the laws of some countries would agree with this.
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Anonymous
"Hands up Don't Shoot" was a lie. I still don't blame think it's fair to blame Black Lives Matter activists for the few sympathizers that kill police officers, torch cars, and burn down retirement homes.
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acyutananda
I wasn't following that story closely. Exactly what false belief did "Hands up Don't Shoot" instill in those few sympathizers?
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acyutananda
That WP article says:
Another witness . . . heard a man. . . . The man was saying something to the
effect of, “The police shot my friend and his hands were up.” The
witness said that “quickly became the narrative on the street, and . . .
people used it both as an excuse to riot and to create a ‘block party’
atmosphere.”
What does "it" refer to? Did people find an excuse to riot because of the
mere existence of the narrative, or because they sincerely believed the
narrative? Anyway, though the article doesn't mention Black Lives Matter itself, I don't think that Black Lives Matter itself was on the scene at that moment in Ferguson.
The article also says, it is important for us to note that the initial “Hands up, don’t shoot” chant after Brown’s shooting has evolved into a message that is no
longer connected solely to the Ferguson event. A series of other fatal
shootings by police occurred following Brown’s death, and the “Hands up,
don’t shoot” came to symbolize the need to hold law enforcement
accountable
If the use of the slogan cannot reasonably be expected to dupe anyone into believing that Brown actually had his hands up, then I don't think those who use the slogan are responsible for what anyone hearing it does. But if it may well dupe people, and if those who use it know that Brown didn't likely have his hands up, and if someone is motivated by being so duped to do something violent, then clearly those who used the slogan helped cause the violence -- maybe they only helped slightly, but they helped -- and did so knowing they were lying. I think the lying makes them partially responsible. Whether we use the word "blame" would depend on whether we think that the violence was definitely a bad thing in the greater scheme of things, and think that that bad was not offset by some greater good that would justify it.
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Jim_H_Discus
You are quite welcome. I am often frustrated because of the aggregation of survey data, but I try to do the best I can with what I can get.
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Crystal
I appreciate your sharing, IHB :)
"I suspect the anti-abortion agenda of the PLM is a ruse for a hidden covert patriarchy objective ... as suggested by their refusal to reallocate their focus and resources on birth-control during Realities 1, addressing the risks females experience during Realities 2, and addressing the sober harsh realities non-wealthy females and children do and would experience in Realities 3."
Agreed and disagreed.
I agree in the way that the PL movement is generally run by abstinence-only, conservative-minded Christian people. I find their sex ethics generally shocking, to be frank. Also, what you say makes sense in this way: making all children be born into a world that will not value their existence once they are born is not a good thing. I simply don't think the solution to this is abortion. What I do believe is that the solution lies at least partially in addressing the issues you stated, and I quote:
"1. Pre-Conception-Realities - Poverty/Other ISMs
2. Pregnancy Risk Realities - Female Autonomy
3. Post-Birth-Realities - Poverty/Other ISMs"
To be honest, I doubt that some of the PL leaders even care for unborn persons. Their incremental laws disgust me for two reasons: they treat unborn persons as political pawns rather than persons in need of protection under the law, and they treat pregnant persons as political pawns rather than thinking, feeling people. Furthermore, the views of some of the RW individuals running things behind the scenes, such as theonomy, make me shudder. I might be a strict PLer but I can empathise with the emotional insecurity a woman feels when she has no way of controlling her reproductive output on her own terms. I have felt the sick, cold feeling in the pit of my stomach, in my daydreams, as I have imagined what being a married woman with no recourse to prevent pregnancy via contraception must be like. To top it all off with fear of pregnancy and childbirth - ugh. So I despise these politicians and leaders because they make matters worse.
I disagree in the sense that the PL movement is focused primarily on saving unborn persons, and that is a good focus to have. I do not think that focus should be shifted away from unborn persons, yet I believe that unborn persons should not be the only focus they have, as abortion is a banaid issue covering up a host of other issues - poverty, etc - as you mentioned. Keeping it focused only on illegalising unborn persons yields only one result - illegalisation - and not only addresses nothing in reality but can also be abused so that pregnant persons receive the short side of the stick. The fact that PLers haven't really thought through the implications of abuse of pregnant persons is highly troubling to me. Such laws might eliminate the taking of life legally (which is a good thing) but they won't answer the issues that cause women to get abortions, and this is wrong to me. I like to ask my fellow prolifers sometimes, if they are so keen to eliminate this morally unacceptable practice, why would you not want to understand the hows, whys, and wherefores of the action, and once you have the understanding, to eliminate the reasons for abortion so that women will not have the incentive to have abortions anymore.
I will write up more later. Again, I deeply appreciate your contributions!
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Jim_H_Discus
I have not come across any data filtered/sorted by racial group other than breaking Catholic responses down to White/Hispanic and Protestant into White/Black.
I think Pew broke down the opinions of people who pray daily about abortion by race but, if I remember correctly, there were only 5 racial categories.
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Crystal
Well, I was surprised because it was so unexpected!
I appreciate your love for me. Please know I love you and your partner as well.
I hope that I have made it clear that I care about all people, not just unborn persons; that I care very much about post-birth guarantees for making the world a better place; and that I do not like the idea of ensuring unborn persons are born then left to die because society did not do its job by caring for them, ensuring they had a reasonable standard of living and educating them.
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Crystal
I'm glad we found something to agree on in the midst of our disagreements!
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Jim_H_Discus
My debate with LB is not about her position, per se. It is that I don't see her arguments supporting that position as sound. They mainly consist of her personal opinion she provides little in the way of credible evidence to support that opinion. When factual evidence; e.g., statistics or semantics, to the contrary is presented, rather than address it, she builds a straw man. However, she doesn't do any better with her straw man because she presents no credible evidence for that argument either.
Regarding Roe v Wade, I have stated, on many occasions that I do not believe it will ever be overturned, and pro-life people are wasting their time trying to do so.
I try to stay on top of surveys and statistical information concerning people's opinions on abortion. Most polls indicate the vast number of people do not favor overturning Roe v Wade in its entirety.
They (Pew and Gallop) also, indicate the majority do not support the extreme positions of either; opposition to abortions regardless of any circumstances, and support for abortions under any/all circumstances.
Most people end up somewhere in the middle.
I think the available data is clear about two things. The first is that most people have moral reservations about abortion. They and believe there must be some sort of justification or rationale for such an action.
The second is that most people do not believe abortions should simply be illegal.
I found some data from a poll commissioned by the National Right to Life Committee that had a greater degree of detail than most. It also assured I couldn't be accused of a pro-abortion bias.
[http(colon)//www(dot)nationalrighttolifenews(dot)org/news/2013/04/new-poll-shows-pro-life-majority-on-abortion/#.VlAsbv9dFy0
I drew the following conclusions:
This poll showed only 11% are in favor of banning all abortions. The number who think it should be legal in all circumstance is almost the same at 12%. So, that correlates well with other poll data I've presented, so it appears to be very reasonable to say both represent extreme minority positions.
Only 30% see the stage of fetal development of the fetus as an exclusive criteria. 20% see three months (much like Roe v Wade's trimester plan) as a cut-off point for abortions for any reason. Only 10% support viability (six months) as the cut-off point.
More people (over 42%) see other circumstances as a criteria for allowing abortion. Only 14% see the life of the mother as the sole criteria for allowing, those who include rape and incest represent another 14%. The study asked one question about all three circumstances together which was 28% and then asked exclusively about the life of the mother.
I need to take a break, but I will be happy to take up the rest of your comments soon.
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Crystal
"1. Re-allocate its labor and millions (resources) to reducing systemic
and institutional poverty, acknowledging overpopulation, developing
procreative abilities outside the female womb, and proactively promoting
and providing free or affordable access to all birth-control ...
excluding setting up their own abortions providers beyond those that
already exist."
I believe in partial reallocation of the funds rather than complete, and that is where we will have a difference. However I believe we agree on these other measures you mentioned - "reducing systematic and institutional poverty, acknowledging overpopulation, developing
procreative abilities outside the female womb, and proactively promoting
and providing free or affordable access to all birth-control".
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Crystal
To be honest, I'm a wee bit surprised. I thought you said this was your last comment on PL topics, at least on this forum.
"This sounds like you're suggesting the medical staff (or mother) LIE about needing the abortion."
No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm simply saying that in some cases, the doctor made a mistake and deemed it "life-of-the-mother" when that baby could have been saved. At the same time, I recognise that, for the present, the life that can be saved should be saved. Which sometimes means saving the mother even if that involves an abortion. I do, however, hope for a day that will employ technology to save both*.
"Also, I'm stunned that you would focus on society mobilizing and
allocating resources to make sure that fetus is born (regardless of what
you consider the "female incubators" wishes) into what real world
conditions ... that the same society does not currently mobilize and
allocate resources to guarantee a middle class or wealthy class LIFE."
I hope I can assure you that I *do not want to see a society that keeps people alive because they're not born yet, but does not care for them and simply leaves them in the slums to die after they're born; in my book that is as anti the prolife ethic as taking their lives before they are born. If I have given the impression that I care only for saving unborn persons to the exclusion of all else, I am sincerely saddened, because that is not what I want at all.
"You want society to find a way via criminalizing abortion, inventing
technology, and mobilizing and allocating resources to GUARANTEE THAT
BIRTH ... but remain silent about ANY POST-BIRTH GUARANTEES."
Well, actually, did I mention that there would have to be a lot to change in the post-birth world as well? If not, I should have. No, I'm not solely for replacement of abortion via high techs, nor solely for protecting unborn persons via legal means, although that is something I'm not ashamed of. I appreciate the fact you pointed this out, because, if this was going to work, a number of things would have to change or at least improve, as follows: 1) Adoption would need to be reformed. The adoption system, at the present time, is in a terrible mess. People who shouldn't be allowed to adopt children are, and that concerns me.
2) Social safety nets would have to be strengthened rather than taken away from women, because if women are going to keep their babies, then they will need help and support in that.
3) Contraceptives would have to be improved, strengthened, multiplied and freely available.
4) Sex education would also have to be freely available. But it would have to be a type that did not shame people for not fitting into cultural norms.
5) Altering our attitudes towards sex and pregnancy would have to be a must*. We would have to be far more accepting of solo motherhood than we are now. Also, women could no longer be seen as criminals for having sex whilst in possession of a uteri. Furthermore, no woman should have to ever, ever be afraid when she gets pregnant. She would need the security of knowing she can apply for nonjudgmental help, and that she would be aided, and the path to being a parent or adopting out would be made simple for her, rather than hard as it is now.
6) Combating the actual causes of abortion would be imperative also. If unborn persons have a right to life, so do born persons. As I mentioned, we would have to deal with poverty, domestic violence, rape culture, rape and incest, etc. Also we would have to channel our greatest services for free education, free healthcare, free help of all types, etc, into poor neighbourhoods, so that young people could have a chance to grow up without living in slums. Any woman who wants to escape an abusive relationship would have to know she could get a hotline. Also any woman who got pregnant would have to go to a healthcare center and have her options explained to her, without judgment. Last but not least we would have to believe rape victims and victims of incest rather than the perpetrators.
While I have my opinions I recognise that abortion is not just a moral issue by itself, but a bandaid on a host of other issues. Therefore, simply guaranteeing birth without guaranteeing born citizens are looked after is absurd and wrong because the bandaid would only be changed, not disregarded. In other words, if we dealt with the issues that caused abortion, we would be reducing abortions nearly half-way at least and that would be a good thing. You are correct in saying that if birth was to be guaranteed we would have to change post-birth conditions as well in order to ensure our future generations had a better world to grow up in. I hope I have made myself clear that I don't hold to the adage "If you're pre-birth, you're fine; if you're pre-school, you can go to hell as far as I'm concerned."
"Wow ... all pregnancies must be born no matter what reality going on with the "female incubators" and "post-birth" ..."
In regards to that, I mentioned the technology that would ensure that unborn persons got to live yet pregnant persons got to decide whether they wanted to carry or not, because I am not for women being made to carry a pregnancy if they don't wish to. I simply part ways with the legal abortion advocate crowd on the issue of abortion being the best method to achieve this bodily freedom.
"Heck, the GOP opposes our government allocating food stamps to already
born poor and low-income struggling human beings whom need to eat, plus a
whole scope of other life sustaining and empowering resources."
You know what? I *agree with you on this! I am very much for food stamps and other such social services going to poor people, and I have no problem paying my taxes to ensure that these people get fed.
"Our species doesn't even know what such a concept or reality looks like ... all human life and quality of life guaranteed."
That is a world I would like to see a reality, as I explained above.
"I'm sorry, but I have to opine ... the PLM is so misguided in how it
mobilizes and allocates its labor hours and millions of dollars in
resources ... all of which could be focused 100% on guaranteeing a
quality life for already alive human beings outside the womb ... and
yes, even those unborn fetus they demand be born by "female incubators"
worldwide."
I agree. They need to care for everyone. The problem is that they are run by this capitalist mindset that makes poor people into automatic criminals. As for me, I want my resources to help everyone - unborn and born alike. Not just one group of people, everyone. I hope we understand each other a little better now.
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lady_black
A woman's place = Wherever she wants to be.
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Crystal
Hi IHB
I deeply appreciate that you explained what you believe about the movement itself without attacking those who adhere to PL belief. It was a very thorough and thought-provoking critique, IMO. I don’t really have too much to say in response except that it is an area worth seriously researching and self-examining, more than I have. If you’re wrong, I will let you know. But if you’re right, I’ll let you know that too.
I don’t represent or belong to the PL movement but am rather an outlier, because it is run, at least in part, by conservative Christian people who believe in old-fashioned abstinence ideals that don’t help matters any. In my heart, I left it a while back (I was never officially part of it) because I questioned some of their legislative methods and could see their laws generally (not always, but generally) weren’t helping. I’m still PL in my heart and I’m
open to listening to both sides (prolife and advocate for legal abortion) of the topic so I can learn more about how to treat this sensitive issue. I have a lot to say about how I believe abortions can be reduced, and I want to talk about it more one day if you’re comfortable with that, but I will leave my thoughts for the present at this as I wish to focus on where we do share common ground: we agree that the causes of abortion – poverty, rape culture, domestic
violence, etc – should be dealt with or at least seriously reduced, plus both of us believe contraception should be promoted far and wide. IMO science and reason are the best way to handle this controversy in society, not bombs and death threats of abortion practitioners.
I am not a moderator here. However, I care about the fellow commenters not being banned or deleted, and deeply value their contributions, which is why I will send them comments letting them know if and when they’re stepping over a line. The reason I told you about people versus actions was that I did not want the mods censoring your comments.
Although I have no problem resuming discussion of this topic with you if you change your mind, I respect the fact you have no desire to discuss this for the present as I understand that discussing abortion is not for everyone. However, you have made me so happy for such a brief period of time that I strongly desire to talk about topics we do agree on when we both feel comfortable
doing so, if that is all right with you. Would you mind if we move our
conversation over to Love Joy Feminism where we can keep discussing that rape culture article that you commented on yesterday, because it would mean so much to me if you could do that for me and also because I find you to have a very insightful perspective on many topics. Also if you want to drop by on The
Friendly Atheist (which is not prolife BTW) I will be happy to talk when I see you :)
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Crystal
I just found this really neat article; could you pick up a conversation at
this point; I left a comment at this article and could you respond to it as it's not about prolife:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/12/can-we-talk-about-those-faux-victorians.html#comment-2410200298
Also there's another comment I would appreciate your thoughts on at this address, if that's okay, as this is from the article about rape culture you read last night:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/12/the-word-is-rape.html#comment-2410203572
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Crystal
No apology required.
I think it fair to state that I apologise for misunderstanding your intentions. It seemed to me, at the time, that the comment about jihad was completely unrelated to the issue at hand, namely, anti-abortion terrorism. I appreciate
your explaining your intentions as to why you made that particular comment; now I understand a little better where you are coming from and this is very helpful in that it puts your comments in context.
"I thought the unspoken issue raised in the PLM article was whether people identifying with the politics of PLM should be viewed as potential Domestic Terrorist?
This ISSUE speaks to all people whom identify with the politics of other groups and whether they too can be defined as potential DTs."
AFAIK you were correct to judge that that was the topic the article was discussing. This is the intention of the article, and I quote:
"Many pro-choice people have responded to the recent shooting by blaming pro-life advocates. In this article I show why such claims are completely unjustified by analyzing culpability and what it means to incite violence."
"In other words C ... this article is a political polemic ... not legal analysis ... about whether a Mass Murder whom identifies with and articulates PLM politics is a Domestic Terrorist."
No, it isn't a legal analysis. But it's not about whether a mass murderer who identifies with and articulates PLM politics is a domestic terrorist either. I'm pretty sure the author of this article would recognise him as a domestic terrorist or a murderer at the very least. It's an article written by a
prolifer who recognises that anti-abortion terrorism is a problem, and is seeking to explain why most prolifers are not responsible for one man's actions. Yet it's also explaining how a person could incite violence through their words so that they can avoid falling into that trap when they honestly
critique the abortion issue.
"In other words, if we "compartmentalized" our analysis (online and offline) ... don't conduct "comparative analysis" of politically motivated murders ... then we fail to identify and deconstruct the common patterns of "hate" and "dogma" all potential DTs share ... whether it's specifically PL mass-murders, School mass-murders, Jihadist mass-murders, Gang mass-murders, etc ... notwithstanding our federal government has official definitions of domestic terrorism."
Since seeking to analyse the commonalities between different types of mass murderers seemed to be your intentions when you commented and called the PL movement a terrorist organisation, I actually appreciate the critique because I think it is good to hear a dissenting voice.
"The same polemic could be written by any political group ... including DAESH ... regarding any person identifying with and articulating their politks."
I can agree with that because it's true.
"But if you don't see these common patterns comparatively between all these mass-murders, then I'll respect the articles' online compartmentalization ... although offline that's not how reality works."
Well, would you mind explaining the common patterns comparatively between the mass-murders of PL and jihad, because I have no problem having that conversation with you at all.
"I can 100% guarantee you "compartmentalization" isn't how our NSA, CIA, FBI, and ATF intelligence analysts view these mass murders. To the contrary they're looking for "common patterns" of "ideological and political dogma"."
Oh, okay. Fair enough.
Let's see here: there is surely a difference between criticising an ideology and hating people who believe that ideology, yes? Please remember that when you critique, because the prolifers I know are good people who would never want to terrorise any abortion practitioner. Yet I admit that there are some who wish to employ these kinds of tactics on abortion practitioners and it is not helpful. I am open to hearing evidence on either side either for or against the idea that the
PL movement generally supports terrorism, although, so far as I know, it doesn't. So if you have genuine evidence and can prove it I will at least look at it.
In other words, seeking to accuse prolife people, out the gate, of holding terrorist notions or ideas won't help, and the moderators will not appreciate condemnation of people*. However, a thoughtful analysis of why you believe the
PL *movement supports domestic terrorism would contribute greatly to the content of this forum as that is very much part of the subject that the moderators want everyone to discuss, AFAIK.
Last but not least you were far more on-topic than I realised so thanks for clearing up the confusion. I have no problem resuming this conversation if you are so inclined. So thanks for your contributions!
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Crystal
I can understand your frustration, but I think we're getting a little off-topic here. If this article was covering Islam I'd discuss that with you. However it's not.
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Anonymous
You can count the number of people sympathetic to the pro-life cause that have actually killed people for ideological reasons on your fingers. Most (if not all) of them are just like Robert Dear - mentally unstable loners with criminal backgrounds living in sheds or off the grid. To date, no pro-life activist has ever flown an airplane into a building, strapped a bomb to his face, thrown acid on a woman's face for going to school, beheaded a journalist, or opened fire on an office because of a cartoon. There aren't tens of millions of pro-life advocates applauding such behaviour. There are no organized anti-abortion terrorist groups on social media promising young people 72 virgins if they leave their families to overthrow the government and destroy monuments. You don't see a huge fraction of the pro-life population that believes in killing their daughters for dishonouring their families (by changing religion, or by refusing to cover their hair/forehead/face/full body).
Unless you can say the same about jihadists, stop insulting victims of radical Islam by suggesting the two are even remotely similar.
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Crystal
Although I am open to hearing both sides of the issue on anti-abortion terrorism, I do believe the vast majority of grassroots prolifers and a few of the leaders deplore violence against those who do not share their views. So I appreciate your critique.
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Crystal
That is cruel.
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lady_black
The only heartbeat that's relevant is that of the woman. Without that, there will be no 'beating heart.'
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Wild_Bird
All human persons, both inside and outside the womb, are deserving of protection.
Try again.
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joshbrahm
I think we agree on the conclusion, but the "try again" you added here is fairly snarky, or at least doesn't tend to lead to productive dialogue between people who disagree. Please refrain from jabs like that on this forum. Thanks.
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Jim_H_Discus
What you say seems to me to be intuitively true. However, if you say that to someone who doesn't feel the same way, I don't think just the fact that you believe it will impress or influence them very much, if at all. That seems to be the case here. Is there an actual reasonable argument you can make to support that statement or is it just a dogmatic, religious (or quasi-religious) assertion?
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lady_black
The only pregnancy you can protect is the one in your own uterus. There is no such neutral zone, known as "da woooomb" where "unborns" just hang out getting bigger without having negative effects on the health of real persons. No they are not persons. However, women are.
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joshbrahm
Those sources are using LMP instead of post-fertilization age. Post-fertilization age is around 21 days. Source: http://www.drplace.com/Evaluation_of_fetal_arrhythmias.16.20197.htm
FYI: Don't feel bad. Common pro-life confusion, and a lot of sources are vague about which they're using. Most sources use LMP.
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Crystal
Thank you, I did not know that before and I will have a look at the link when I have time.
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lady_black
And there would be no beating heart without the beating heart of the mother, regardless of when it starts to beat.
Cardiac cells will beat in a petri dish with electrical stimulation. If there are a group of them, they beat in unison, because that's what they do. No one is obligated to preserve beating cardiac cells, regardless of location.
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Crystal
Do you believe that an embryo is a group of beating cardiac cells then? I'm not trying to be dumb here, just wondering exactly what you do believe about the composition of the ZEF.
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lady_black
Until it's able to live outside someone else's body? Pretty much. I think differently about viable fetuses. They're still not entitled to a uterus, but if there's a threat to the mother's health, they can be delivered.
In fact, it's a delivery after 20 weeks, even if the fetus won't make it. Which brings up another misconception about "abortion." "The day before delivery", "the month before delivery", "8 1/2 months" or any other false situations anyone might lay out, abortion is not EVEN possible. At that point, it's a delivery, even of a dead fetus. NOT an abortion.
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Crystal
Well, thank you for sharing what you believe. I can understand where you're coming from a little better now. Personally if a baby is dead and would be stillborn in the natural, I am not against the abortion procedure being used at that point.
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lady_black
That is not "an abortion procedure" at all. It's a delivery 100% of the time, regardless of the life-status of the fetus. You must realize that a fetus over a certain size cannot be suctioned out with a cannula, removed in pieces in a D&E, nor can it be teleported to outside the uterus. Thus delivery is the only option.
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joshbrahm
This is 100% correct. A late-term abortion is a 2-3 day procedure because of the necessity of dilating the cervix with laminaria. This is why one of the arguments many pro-choice organizations used against the ban on D&X abortions (commonly referred as "partial-birth abortions") that the ban would put women's lives at risk was so deceptive. If a woman's life is at risk late in pregnancy, a partial-birth abortion would never be done. An emergency C-section (like the one that was used to birth my youngest son Eli, whose umbilical cord had wrapped around his neck) can be done in 10-20 minutes.
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Jim_H_Discus
I was wondering what happened to you. Did you reply to my comments and I missed it, or did you choose to not reply. If you chose not to reply, can I assume you agree with what I said?
I proved my claim by providing a source from a medical journal. Since you currently claiming that the termination of a pregnancy by medical or surgical means after a certain stage of the pregnancy is considered a delivery rather than an abortion, could you please do likewise and provide a similar type of medical source supporting that claim?
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lady_black
No you can't assume anything. What was your comment?
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Jim_H_Discus
Before I address my previous comment, I would ask if you are going to address this one?
Regarding the medical source I provided supporting my claim, it was in response to:
"Wrong. And NO "the majority of doctors" do NOT go with "conception. I'M not even sure ANY of them do. ."
The actual data showed that twice as many doctors go with conception as implantation.
That was part of a reply I made to you 2 days ago. Here it is in its entirety.
"An incarcerated person loses freedom of movement, which is a type of autonomy. He doesn't lose bodily autonomy. In particular, a female convict is not forced to carry a pregnancy."
You are simple playing word games. But, that's fine lets look at it semantically: i.e., based on the meanings of the words:
Autonomy is simply an individual’s capacity for self-determination or self-governance. Bodily simply means of or concerning the body.
Bodily autonomy is therefore simply an individual's ability (synonym for capacity) to determination or govern their own body.
You admit that "An incarcerated person loses freedom of movement, which is a type of autonomy." So I would ask they lose the freedom of movement of what? The only logical response is their body, of course.
So, based on semantics; i.e., the meanings of the words involved, it is simply incorrect to say he doesn't lose bodily autonomy.
Conceptually, bodily autonomy is not limited to the reproductive aspect of the body. So, the fact that "a female convict is not forced to carry a pregnancy" may be true, it does nothing to negate the fact that controlling a convicts freedom of movement also results in a loss of their bodily autonomy.
"Wrong. And NO "the majority of doctors" do NOT go with "conception. I'M not even sure ANY of them do. ."
You need to read something other than whatever propaganda you have been reading and be better informed, and less dogmatic, with your assertions.
Implantation is not the consensus of the OB GYN's in the country and repeating negatives and using caps does not change that. In fact, implantation is the minority view.
A study of "Obstetrician-gynecologists' beliefs about when pregnancy begins" was published in the American Journal of Obstetrics and Gynecology -- February 2012, Volume 206, Issue 2, Pages 132.e1–132.e7. it stated:
One-half of US obstetrician-gynecologists (57%) believe pregnancy begins at conception. Fewer (28%) believe it begins at implantation, and 16% are not sure.
"This is simply NO. Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Rights are not subjected to the whims of others. That would be mob rule. We DO have a Constitution, you know. The rights of everyone are protected from tyranny of the majority.
More repetition and caps. I have pretty well lost hope in a civil intelligent conversation with you, at this point, I'm glad this is almost over.
Your original comment was:
"People are free to believe as they wish, but that has zero impact on the rights of another."
How do you think rights are determined? For example you mentioned the constitution. Were the men who wrote the constitution not people who believed what they wished to believe, defied a king, and had a huge impact on the rights of a whole lot of "anothers". The rights of everyone are protected from tyranny of the majority as a direct result of their beliefs.
Have you ever read the Federalist Papers. It was a series of papers arguing for the ratification of the United States Constitution. No. 10 is an essay written by James Madison under the pseudonym Publius (under which all of The Federalist Papers were published),
Federalist No. 10 is among the most highly regarded of all American political writings. It addresses the question of how to guard against "factions", or groups of citizens, with interests contrary to the rights of others or the interests of the whole community. Madison argued that a strong, united republic would be better able to guard against those dangers than would smaller republics—for instance, the individual states. Opponents of the Constitution offered counterarguments to his position, which were substantially derived from the commentary of Montesquieu on this subject.
So the fact that rights are not subjected to the whims of others and that the rights of everyone are protected from tyranny of the majority are the results of the beliefs of people like Madison which had and do still have considerable impact.
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lady_black
What is "pregnancy?" It is the state of females while they are carrying an embryo or a fetus. Now with all due respect for those OBs who think otherwise, at fertilization a female isn't "carrying" anything. There is a free-floating ball of cells that have a far better chance of ending up passing harmlessly out of her body than attaching to her and starting to grow. I would also ask these "doctors" if they consider petri dishes to be "pregnant" since there are embryos in them. Pregnancy is a dance involving two, not merely the presence of an embryo that at this point is doing nothing but floating in space. Therefore, I stick by what I was taught in nursing school.
As far as the federalist papers? Those are not law. They can tell us something about what the founding fathers were thinking when they drafted the Constitution, and I agree that the notion of protecting minority rights from the tyranny of the majority originated there. The time of the founding fathers has come and gone, and the Constitution must be interpreted according to life in 2015, not in the late 18th century when it was written. Otherwise, it just isn't worth much. For example, they thought only white male landowners should vote. In today's society, such an idea would be laughed out of court.
Today we have the 14th amendment that clarifies everything. No state or federal government may deny any person equal protection under the law, and defines exactly who is a citizen. Anyone born inside the United States or naturalized therein. No federalist papers are needed to clarify that. Therefore, the rights of a minority cannot be subjected to the whims of voters.
Now as to bodily autonomy. What type of autonomy is denied to prisoners? The autonomy that you and I enjoy to be located wherever we wish to be. They cannot leave.
That is NOT the same as loss of bodily autonomy. A prisoner cannot be drugged or treated medically against his will. He cannot be strapped down and forced to donate blood. He cannot be raped without it being a crime. He cannot be forced to eat. He cannot be forced into medical experimentation. He cannot be forcibly sterilized. And in the case of a female prisoner, she cannot be forced either to abort a pregnancy, nor to carry one to term. THAT is BODILY autonomy. Loss of bodily autonomy is not defined as the loss of freedom of movement. That would more accurately be called a loss of liberty than bodily autonomy. It's not a semantics game. Words mean what they mean. And even then, prisoners are not deprived of ALL liberty. They cannot, for instance, be forbidden to marry... even on death row.
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Jim_H_Discus
First of all, does your silence mean you are not going to provide a medical source supporting that claim that "the termination of a pregnancy by medical or surgical means after a certain stage of the pregnancy is considered a delivery rather than an abortion"?
Next, I would point out that your comment that I originally addressed was:
"Wrong. And NO "the majority of doctors" do NOT go with "conception. I'M not even sure ANY of them do. ."
That was factually incorrect and your lack of research was blatantly apparent. So rather than admit that you were wrong you build a straw man argument instead.
But, in doing so, you don't effectively knock your straw man argument down either. You offer no evidence from a credible source and instead present only your own opinions based on you remember from nursing school. You believe that should overrule the opinions of doctors who specialize and currently practice in that field
If you think about it, isn't the development of pregnancy actually counted from the first day of the woman’s last normal menstrual period (LMP), even though the development of the fetus does not begin until conception, which is about two weeks later, which assumes each menstrual cycle to be her body is preparing for pregnancy.?
Aren't you really just saying pregnancy begins at implantation simply because you prefer that definition because it better serves your argument? I have used that argument too, because I understand how effective IUDs are at preventing pregnancies and thus reduce abortions. But, I was wrong. It is not the consensus of doctors who practice in that field.
The next comment I addressed was:
"People are free to believe as they wish, but that has zero impact on the rights of another."
That is conceptually about the relationship between beliefs and rights and I addressed it on that basis. The Federalist papers were an example of the selling of a set of beliefs having an impact on the rights of others, in case it was Madison addressing the rights of the individual, which is the issue the raised. I could have used many other examples to illustrate beliefs that found themselves incorporated into the legal system that has a great impact on rights. You completely miss the point by attacking the examples rather than the concept itself.
Next you say:
"Now as to bodily autonomy. What type of autonomy is denied to prisoners? The autonomy that you and I enjoy to be located wherever we wish to be. They cannot leave.
That is NOT the same as loss of bodily autonomy."
Semantics is the study of words and their meanings. I have clearer defined the words "bodily" and "autonomy" using standard reference material for the English language and showed how when combined they can mean precisely that. Your comment: "That is NOT the same as loss of bodily autonomy." is simply incorrect based upon semantics.
The use of improper capitalization for emphasis doesn't change that and only accentuates the fact it is purely your opinion.
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lady_black
A medical source? How about any medical dictionary? My knowledge is primary. I was taught in nursing school that abortion is the termination of pregnancy prior to viability. Since then they have tightened up the standards a bit, but it still amounts to the same thing.
Are you not aware that ALL pregnancies terminate? Whether they terminate in birth (delivery) or abortion is a matter of stage. But since you evidently have a problem with this, tell me how YOU would term them?
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Jim_H_Discus
"Whether they terminate in birth (delivery) or abortion is a matter of stage."
Apparently, not:
Abortion - elective or therapeutic
Alternative names
Therapeutic abortion; Elective abortion
Definition
Elective or therapeutic abortion is the deliberate termination of a pregnancy.
http(colon)//medical-dictionary-search-engines(dot)com/encyclopedia/?encyclopedia_name_url=48&level=2
I would call it an abortion if it meets that criteria; i.e., it is intentional.
Do you have no reply to my other comments?
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lady_black
Under that logic, you are calling my daughter's labor induction "an abortion." Screw you. It was intentional. It was also a delivery.
Abortion (medically) applies to the* premature* termination of pregnancy by natural or induced means, and has no relationship to the life status of the fetus. An abortion, natural or induced, will always result in fetal death, because the fetus is unviable. A delivery will usually, but not always, result in a living child.
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Jim_H_Discus
It's not my logic, nor did I write that definition. I merely said I would define abortion in accord with it.
Your response was completely inappropriate. You apparently couldn't argue factually, so instead, you (I suspect) feign personal hurt and outrage. You then "shoot the messenger".
At least you have dropped the pretense of objectivity and civility.
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lady_black
Admit it. You made it up. It didn't come from a medical dictionary. "The intentional termination of pregnancy" is NOT the medical definition of abortion. I tend to get angry with people who lie to my face. I have told you what I was taught in nursing school about what abortion means, and I have told you what the specific medical definition is. ALL pregnancies "terminate" and a great many of them are intentional, and are not abortions. And you can also lump my two C-sections, and my sister's three C-sections in with your screwball definition of abortion as well. All were intentional. All terminated a pregnancy. NONE were abortions.
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Jim_H_Discus
More kill the messenger responses from you and now the all out, murderous rage denoted by the dreaded ALL CAPS. I am almost to scared to respond.
Can you read? I provided even provided a link. Did I make up a website too, just to prove I was right?
If "The intentional termination of pregnancy" is NOT the medical definition of abortion, please provide a link to a medical dictionary that proves otherwise and I would be happy to acquiesce on this.
It seems to take a lot less get you angry than people who lie to your face, just disagreeing with you seems a quite effective way to do it as well.
I not terribly impressed by what you were taught in nursing school. My wife attended a nursing school attached to the Mayo clinic. One of her teachers taught that a women could not get pregnant the first time she had sex. The quality and accuracy of the information is very depended on the person teaching it. Not all teachers are of the same caliber.
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lady_black
"I don't care what you were taught in nursing school. My wife was taught a women couldn't get pregnant the first time she had sex at a nursing school attached to the Mayo clinic."
No, she was not taught that. They don't teach "old wive's tales" in nursing school. And you didn't supply any link. You went to http://web.md, not a medical dictionary.
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Jim_H_Discus
I'll tell her you called her a liar. I doubt she lose much sleep over it. I simply see that as typical of your responses. I believe http://Web.md does provide sources. Besides, you made the assertion initially and you still haven't provided any evidence, except your typical "because I said so!!".
However, I have found your continuing nasty and condescending (though consistently wrong) motivational. Consequentially, its worth the effort to find and present evidence, for no other reason than to embarrass you.
Here's how the Merc Manuals describe abortion:
"Induced abortion is the intentional ending of a pregnancy by surgery or drugs."
https(colon)//www(dot)merckmanuals(dot)com/home/women's-health-issues/family-planning/abortion
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Wild_Bird
I don't care if I am banned from this site.
You are one very sick puppy little Shifty. Why don't you get a life?
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Crystal
Wow, that's awesome!
Night :)
I wish your partner well, if that's all right. Because she sounds like a very smart woman from what you tell me :)
PS: Thanks for calling me a co-leader! Because one mark of a man of character is to recognise women as co-leaders :)
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Crystal
"please don't let anyone (especially males ... lol) tell you otherwise"
As I battle misogyny in my soul and in my body and in my environment, I will remember your words - guaranteed!
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Crystal
Thank you; you're an awesome, intelligent, and wise leader too :)
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Crystal
"And now you know 100% why I was 100% correct about how sharp you are and
a superb LEADER ... it's not a binary males vs females or vice versa
... it's humans loving humans:)"
God, I agree 100%!
Personally, as I've stated before, I find men to be magnificent, strong, bright, brave leaders IF they are doing what is right and good and treating others with respect as well. Men have the inherent capacity to do so much good and to be so incredibly intelligent, but they have to earn respect through character and are not entitled to it simply because they are men*. If a man is good and trustworthy, stern yet gentle, wise yet open-minded, etc, I will trust and respect that man. But he has to prove himself to be good first, before I can even consider pledging my trust so completely. Please don't ever underestimate your intelligence and leadership skills, nor talk yourself down to put others up either, just because you happen to be a man.
To me, what is needed is not only to value the leadership of your own sex but also to value the leadership of the opposite sex - I mark a note that this is a great failing in society, that everyone brags about how great their sex is while putting the opposite sex down, or praises the opposite sex while downplaying the positive contributions of their own. This statement is not a criticism of either of us but rather an affirmation that our society seriously needs to change in this area, and, as we agreed so capitally, that men and women need to lead *together rather than fighting each other all the time.
As a leader, then, plus as a supporter, I support your decision to get off this forum and do what you must do. Many cheers go with you for the wonderful day you gave me, and I hope I made you happy too!
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Crystal
I thank you, yet again. I am deeply touched by your opening your heart to me like this! I cannot help but respond back with respect, appreciation, and love.
I'm sorry I was a little mad at you at the very beginning, but I'm glad I restrained myself and tried to understand where you were coming from, and no I didn't hate you either even then, and certainly don't now!
Thank you so very much for encouraging me to be a leader; and to think of myself as that; and for noticing, remarking on, and praising those qualities. I have never really been told I have the capacity to be a leader (except for once or at the most twice), only the capacity to be LED, partially because of my nature and partially because I am, in the eyes of others, a sweet young woman. I will try not to underestimate myself!
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Crystal
Thank you so much for talking and listening to me. I'm aware we didn't exactly like each other at first but once we got past the initial animosity we hit it off just fine, like I suspected, and a part of me wonders if you thought the same.
I have to go too; I've got RL (real life) to live. I appreciate the fact you want to check out those places and I hope to see you again soon so we can discuss loads of topics more - feminism, PL, racism, etc.
You have taught me a great deal today. I hope we can respectfully find common ground where we can, and disagree with compassion when we must. You've made me think a lot of noble thoughts about my sex and appreciate good men who support women all the more. If ever I get the right man I want someone who highly appreciates female leadership so thank you for bringing that to my attention.
I agree with and feel deeply inspired by your desire to see women lead. I also think that men are intelligent and strong, and make brilliant leaders as well; that doesn't mean I'm seeking to willfully misunderstand your beliefs about women's intelligence and leadership qualities; quite the contrary. I was raised traditional so I appreciate these good qualities in males, and there's a reason men and women should lead together - they need each other.
I will check out your link.
Time for bed for me too, sorry :*(
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Crystal
Thank you for affirming my desire to be treated with respect. That shows one mark of a man of character in my book.
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Crystal
That's because you're genuine and respectful.
I knew we'd have a lot in common once we got past the rough stage :)
I don't feel threatened at all, nor do I sense you are flirting with me. You are talking to me like a person and that's great!
BTW, I couldn't flirt to save my life.
Do you mind if I gently encourage you to stop being a procrastinator? It is a hurtful habit, I know from sad experience :(
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Crystal
I thank you.
Honestly, I never thought of myself as a leader! In real life I am rather meek and compliant I'm afraid. But I know there's a tiger inside waiting to be unleashed if she's given the opportunity :)
I do not know how I managed to win you over like that. Can you tell me how I did it, if you wouldn't mind?
I persisted because I like people, and I think of what we can agree on far more than on what we disagree on. Finding common ground, especially on such a tough issue as abortion or anything else equally as controversial, is important to me because at that point we're viewing each other as enemies and we need to forget that we disagree and see each other's humanity.
Please, make Love Joy Feminism a new home if you feel comfortable with that. Also, check out Friendly Atheist. I post there a lot sometimes and I would love to run into you again because you are a very sharp, bright, intelligent man yourself. Yes, men are right on the ball! A female leader has to recognise that rather than pandering to the idea that men are dumb and women are smart, because that's nonsense.
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Crystal
I don't do cyber space or anything, just comment on a few articles. I'm not into social media either, certainly no FB or Twitter.
Of course it is flesh-and-blood human beings. Why the spontaneous responses from so many Disqus owners?
You should have read his comments. I felt threatened, like I mentioned. I knew he couldn't touch me because of the computer screens, but I also knew he was a real person and his intentions towards me were less than honourable. You have to be very careful what you put up on the Internet, no kidding!
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Crystal
No offence, hahahaha! I love a good laugh - just as long as I get the gist of what I'm laughing about :)
Aww, you're really laying it on thick; that's so sweet, thank you!
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Crystal
Making inappropriate comments at me. Awful. I was very afraid. Here's the whole story:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/11/05/half-of-the-new-canadian-cabinet-members-chose-to-skip-so-help-me-god-in-their-oaths-of-office/#comment-2345535945
I felt guilty over that for a long time.
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Crystal
I value, respect, and love you too, first and foremost as a person. Also, as someone who has taught me a lot, and I deeply appreciate our conversations and the insight you have brought into them :)
I don't think the agreement we have is perfunctory now, but rather sincere.
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Crystal
Hey, I'm aware you're not trying to brown-nose me, LOL. You were - and still are - pretty frank with me about where we disagree, I think. No brown-nosing there!
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Crystal
I believe in your integrity. I know you're not being disrespectful or sexually harassing me. I have experienced that once online and it was not fun believe me.
BTW: thank you :)
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Crystal
I hope you don't mind if I copy your comment to the article on rape itself. Your thoughts are that good. I will respond to this comment at that article commenting section as well.
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Crystal
I am female, and proud to be a woman :)
I do not believe in being dishonest about my identity, despite my desire for privacy. I'm not sure where I said you were Marxist, but thanks for clarifying.
"as you'll learn about the Italian scholar whom created the term and analytical framework"
Please tell me more. Who is this person?
"I'll do to the other article (website) ... what's your aka name there?"
It's Crystal there as well.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/2015/12/the-word-is-rape.html
When I respond to your off-topic comments I will take my responses there and let you know I have done so. Thank you for agreeing to shift the conversation. I do not want your good thoughts deleted just because they weren't on-par with the theme of this blog.
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Crystal
"I also have issues with whites defining, interpreting, and dictating the
realities of non-whites ... not to be misconstrued with all human
beings having input (voice) into the complexities of our species as
"human beings" ."
Can you please explain the difference between the two, as I'm a little mystified.
I've never really heard of the word "hegemony" before speaking with you, so I would say you taught me something new.
http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/hegemony
"Hegemony is political or cultural dominance or authority over others. The hegemony of the popular kids over the other students means that they determine what is and is not cool."
Based on that definition, I can see totally what you mean - if indeed you are working by that definition. In other words, are you saying that people's choices, how they view themselves, and how they act, are influenced by the cultural and political hegemony around them?
PS: I hope you don't mind if I ask you to take this discussion to at least one of those web pages I mentioned, because we are getting off-topic and I want to respect the moderator's rules while enjoying our chat. If you're agreeable, we can take it to that article on nonconsensual sex you enjoyed so much.
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Crystal
"I don't loathe or hate religion or spiritual folks. I just loathe when
it becomes a rationale for killing or murdering or oppressing people:)"
You're right; I should have taken note of that. I am spiritual but not religious myself.
I have read that article about Doug Wilson in the past. On seeing it referenced, I can identify with why you're agnostic and critical of white hegemony. I read portions of his Southern Slavery as it Was with disgust. The man obviously has serious problems with critical thinking skills as it relates to morality :(
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Crystal
Of course they will be! And don't fear, our discussions will generally be very earth-centered and worldly, LOL. I hate Biblical Patriarchy and all it stands for with a passion. Unfortunately it is off-topic so I cannot expound but I feel that cult has helped to ruin any credibility conservatives might have had with liberals. They are a crazy lot.
I especially loathe Doug Wilson.
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Crystal
I'm a Westerner. I have never been raped or abused by incest. However, I have read and have had the privilege of knowing people who have been raped, so their pain resonates with me. Also I am tokophobic, meaning I struggle with fearing pain and downsides in childbirth. I have also struggled with mental illness, meaning I am unprepared to have children. I'm definitely not trying to speak from a place of privilege. The only reason I believe abortion is wrong is that it takes an innocent human life. That's it. If it didn't do that I wouldn't be dead set against it.
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Crystal
Cool. If you ever want to discuss feminism or Biblical Patriarchy with me, that will be the place to find me. I deeply enjoy Love Joy Feminism and The Friendly Atheist.
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Crystal
Thanks for expressing your opinion on the article. I can understand your discomfort. I recognise that you want to be respectful to my sex by not bossing our bodies around and, while I disagree with your position on the abortion issue, I can appreciate the actual thought of wanting to respect female decisions.
"I won't lie, the symbolize 50s looking white female with her baby image
didn't resonate with me, for all kinds of cultural reasons ... including
why "WHITE" still the default "universality" for "human representation"
I share your deploring of white being the default state. I am white myself, yet in a way racism bothers me a lot more than sexism. White is not necessarily delightsome, the Book of Mormon be screwed. We need more non-white representations of models, protagonists in stories, etc. The white privilege - I find it bothersome.
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Crystal
When I say, told it like it is, I mean that I disagree with accusing people but I do agree with decrying the act.
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Crystal
Here's another one I think you'd enjoy:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/lovejoyfeminism/
It's very feminist-oriented, LOL. I learned a lot from her!
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Crystal
Shifty, that kind of speech could get you banned.
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Crystal
No it isn't. It's a website dealing with a variety of topics. The mainstream commenters would generally share your views on the issue of abortion more than mine, although that's not the only thing discussed.
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Crystal
Your behaviour is almost no better, I'm sorry to say.
While I would not approach the issue the way he does, I appreciate the fact he told it like it is.
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Crystal
Shifty, please don't call names. A lot of your comments have been deleted for this. I would, however, appreciate having convos with you at the place I mentioned - SPL.
For instance, what do you think of this article:
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2015/12/what-creates-babies-sex-or-choices.html
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Crystal
Exactly so.
As you yourself said, no right matters once your right to live is gone. I have tried and tried explaining this repeatedly but sometimes with little success.
Do you think it is accusing advocates of legal abortion of ethnic cleansing to assert such a thing? Because I don't. To me, it's just stating a moral principle.
Ironically I would consider myself a progressive person (in some ways). Yet I can see this sort of act runs afoul of all progressive values. We fight against ageism, for disability rights, yet we include abortion, euthanasia. Something's gotta give somewhere.
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Wild_Bird
There are a few pro-life Democrats, but they're a tiny minority within an overwhelmingly pro-abortion party that treats taxpayer funded abortion on demand for any reason throughout the entire nine months of pregnancy as the highest sacrament in the progressive/liberal religion. That's right, I said religion.
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Jim_H_Discus
"There are a few pro-life Democrats, but they're a tiny minority within an overwhelmingly pro-abortion party..."
That statement seems ideological rather than factual:
According to Gallup, in 2012, following are the percentage, in descending order, of people who identify as pro life in each party:
Republicans - 72%
Independent - 47%
Democrats - 34%
The percentage of US adults who identified as pro-life was 50%
http(colon)//www(dot)gallup(dot)com/poll/154838/pro-choice-americans-record-low(dot)aspx
To put that 34% in perspective -- 70% of the US population is Christian, Evangelicals are 25% of the US population, that means Evangelicals are 36% of all Christians in the US.
Would you consider Evangelicals a tiny minority of Christians?
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Crystal
Well, no, because they run the show a lot in conservative Christian culture. Although they're not the only ones.
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Jim_H_Discus
That was meant to be rhetorical.
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Crystal
I see.
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Wild_Bird
Even if the poll you cite is accurate as to the percentage of supposedly pro-life Democrats, only a tiny minority of Democrats who hold elective office are pro-life.
Again, unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand is the highest sacrament in liberal/progressive theology.
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Jim_H_Discus
"Even if the poll you cite is accurate as to the percentage of supposedly pro-life Democrats, only a tiny minority of Democrats who hold elective office are pro-life."
What you said was: "There are a few pro-life Democrats, but they're a tiny minority within an overwhelmingly pro-abortion party..."
I provided data, to show that was not true. I do not intend to play move the goalposts with you. If you do, please do likewise, and provide some data to support your contention.
"Again, unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand is the highest sacrament in liberal/progressive theology."
Again, purely ideological, in no way factual, and totally unimpressive intellectually. The fact that you repeat it just makes you look even less impressive.
However, I did find some factual information about liberal and progressive theology. I have provided it below. However, no where does it mention "unrestricted taxpayer funded abortion on demand" as a sacrament, much less their highest one:
Liberal theology, covers diverse philosophically and biblically informed religious movements and ideas within Christianity from the late 18th century onward. Liberal does not refer to Progressive Christianity or to a political philosophy but to the philosophical and religious thought that developed as a consequence of the Enlightenment.
Progressive theology was much harder tp pin down, but I eventually found something from a Methodist church in the Midwest. In their promotion materials about who they are, they claim progressive theology as one of their unique identifiers. Below is a direct quote from their materials:
8 Points of Progressive Theology: by calling ourselves progressive we mean we are Christians who...
find more grace in the search for understanding than we do in dogmatic certainty--more value in questioning than absolutes
form ourselves into communities dedicated to equipping another for the work we feel called to do; striving for justice among all people, protecting and restoring the integrity of all God's creation, and bringing hope to those Jesus called the least of brothers and sisters
invite all people to participate in our community and worship life without insisting that they become like us in order to be acceptable
recognize the faithfulness of other people who have other names for the way to God's realm, and acknowledge that their ways are true for them, as our ways are true for us.
have found an approach to God through the life and teachings of Jesus.
understand the sharing of bread and wine in the name of Jesus's name to be a representation of an ancient version of God's feast for all peoples
know that the way we behave toward one another is the fullest expression of what we believe
recognize that being followers of Jesus is costly, and entails selfless love, conscientious resistance to evil, and renunciation of privilege
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Wild_Bird
Basically, you're a collectivist who believes in liberation theology -- i.e. Marxism..
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Jim_H_Discus
No, liberal/progressive theology was your term. I merely explained that the terms you were using actually had meanings that were nothing like what you characterize them as.
I don't "believe" in theology at all. However, I do find it interesting from an academic/intellectual standpoint and have read a considerable amount about it.
Why would you assume that the fact that I know something about a subject makes a statement regarding my relationship to it?
For example, you likely understand the digestive system. Can I assume that makes you a turd?
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Crystal
Jim, please don't go down that insults road. It's not good for the commenting section and the moderators have strong feelings about slinging mud.
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Jim_H_Discus
It was meant to be a humorous analogy, not an insult. I like the fact that mudslinging is discouraged, but not hypersensitivity that would consider something like that mudslinging and/or offensive. However, I appreciate your concern.
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Crystal
Thanks for understanding and explaining why you said it. I think your contributions are good so I do not want to see you get banned or have your comments deleted. You sound like a real thinker.
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joshbrahm
Jim wouldn't be banned for that, because he wasn't slinging mud. He was making an analogy. It perhaps could have been made a little clearly and more effectively, but his intent is obvious.
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Jim_H_Discus
Thank you for the kind words.
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Crystal
That's okay. Roll on, Jim.
Two rules I follow: 1) Don't treat others badly
2) Don't let the bad treatment of others get you down
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Jim_H_Discus
Good advice.
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Crystal
How do you know that?
If Jim H is Marxist won't he call himself that? From what I read of him, he hasn't made a decision on life issues either way but rather is very open-minded on the topic.
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Wild_Bird
Why aren't you registered with Disqus?
Why do you only comment as a guest?
What are you hiding?
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Crystal
Nothing!
My circumstances, at present, unfortunately do NOT permit me to get a Disqus registration or I would happily do so. It's a privacy measure.
Also, I am not a troll. I realise a few people have abused the guest commenting facility but I would rather give thoughtful, rational reasons for what I believe than troll people.
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Wild_Bird
"Wrong. Abortion stops a beating heart. An unborn baby.
Try again."
The above prior comment of mine was removed. Josh Brahm and his blog are pathetic.
Last you'll be hearing from me on this thread.
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joshbrahm
As far as I can tell, you are incorrect. That comment is still there, and I just saw it and responded to it today.
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Crystal
I am in agreement with you that that comment should NOT have been removed, because it's the confounded truth, and we can't deny it to pander to sad feelies.
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Crystal
Why do you call it a religion? To me, it's more like a philosophical affiliation. There are different types - Marxists, SJWs (social justice warriors), more questioning liberals, etc.
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Crystal
This is why I call them "unborn persons"; so that we don't fight over the terminology yet I am strongly acknowledging their personhood. I created the term myself, off "pregnant persons."
That aside, I agree with your comment. Abortion does stop a beating heart and that is why I am so dead set against it. I doubt anything will change my mind on the issue.
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Crystal
I've appreciated this conversation so much; it would be an honour for me to bring you to this website where we can talk some more if that's okay with you:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/
You sound as if you'd get on well with the people there :)
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Crystal
I will answer your thoughts in detail later. You've won my respect because you care for us, the women. Thank you :)
When I say, embrace my femininity, that means that I will appreciate myself in every way possible including my biological processes. Never mind the offence that causes.
I think you will enjoy the Suffragette movie coming out then. I appreciate reading about the struggles women faced just to vote.
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Crystal
I'm not religious. Being prolife, for me, has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with standing for life-preserving morality.
Also, I mentioned that I have no wish to suppress anyone. That being said, I am seeking a solution to this problem before us that will grant both pregnant persons their right to bodily autonomy and unborn persons their right to live, via technology and many other methods. I seek to care for and consider both because both are equally important, and it's time prolifers recognised that. That being said, my ideas of caring for both pregnant and unborn persons will not please everyone, and I recognise that as well.
I appreciate your contributions to this forum and I have found you to be respectful and considerate. Thank you. However, as a woman I appreciate men and their intelligence a lot too. I think men and women need to rule together, not one over the other.
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Crystal
  1. I agree that men need to share their power.
  2. "UNTIL procreation takes place outside the female body" - do you think technology will ever make it possible for the procreated person to be moved to another location, after it was created inside the female body, to finish development before birth, without killing it?
    I do agree that women need to step up to the plate and take charge of their lives though. The only difference between you and me is that I don't believe that abortion is the best way to make that happen. Also the only difference between me and the mainstream PL movement is that I don't believe traditional views on female sexuality or even the status of unborn persons are the best way to make that happen either.
  3. Fair enough.
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Crystal
I agree that women have the powerful skills for leadership and have been severely put down by men as well.
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Crystal
"1. If that "toddler" was a "zygote" ... NO, that decision will always be hers:)"
I can understand that.
I wonder though - didn't we start from a small beginning? Also, if the zygote has less worth than the toddler due to developmental differences, would the toddler have less worth than a teen due to such differences?
Also, in regards to bodily autonomy - which type do you believe in, and I quote:
"The Right to Refuse Argument states that even if the unborn is a
human being, a woman has the right to refuse to allow the unborn the use
of her body."
"The Sovereign Zone Argument states that even if the
unborn is a human being, a woman should still be able to have an
abortion because she has the right to do anything she wants with
anything inside the sovereign zone of her body."
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/autumn-in-the-sovereign-zone-why-its-my-body-i-can-do-what-i-want-wont-do/
2. At least you are consistent with your view. You are correct to observe that humans generally don't step out of line to save the lives of others unless they feel up to the challenge. The Hunger Games illustrates that quite well.
3. What's a DSM 5 medical condition?
PS: "cuz I love you ... cyber wise ..." Thanks for the compliment, returned, cyberwise :)
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Crystal
I've read feminist theory enough to sympathise with your views. We are definitely a special breed. I saved your comment for future reference.
As I mentioned, my primary focus is foetal rights and not punishing women for sex, hence the mention of high techs.
I don't choose to be viewed as an incubator. I'm not one. What I do choose is to seek out a solution that will genuinely reduce abortions while allowing women their right to live as they see fit.
I do appreciate your concern for our sex, and I have noticed the obsequious deference to male judgment myself. Which is why I'm trying to reclaim my femininity back, so these guys can't dominate me.
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Crystal
Thank you for explaining your reasons.
"but rarely on the technology to procreate outside the female body ...
and rarely on the systemic and institutional conditions that make it
unfathomable to bring a child into this world ... poverty, war, disease,
bigotry."
On this, we agree.
I do have a question though: if you saw a woman trying to drown her toddler due to depression and anxiety on her part, would you step in to stop the drowning taking place, or not?
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Crystal
Well, we finally found something to come half-way on, and that's good.
I'm not sure poverty will ever be completely eradicated but it helps to reduce it, yes?
Also I advocate for contraceptives, sex education, and social safety nets. I am sorry that the mainstream PL movement hasn't made preserving bodily autonomy and unborn human life together its primary focus.
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Crystal
"If a majority or minority of women decide ALL FEMALES MUST PROCREATE
or be defined as evil, immoral, criminals, murders, etc ... or raise
their kids in poverty, crime, eventual prison or death ... then let that
be the political-decision of ALL FEMALES ... never EVER male
patriarchs:)"
Agreed 100%, because conservative Christian men who preach abstinence aren't helping IMO.
One question to ask though - do you personally believe it is your prerogative to step in when you see something unjust being perpetrated, even if that injustice does not personally affect you?
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Crystal
They will have to make that decision themselves.
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Crystal
With respect, you've made a few mistakes.
First off, I am not American. Second, I believe in the core doctrine of prolife, which is protecting human life from the moment of conception to natural death. However, I agree that the mainstream PL movement is doing more harm than good with its incremental laws. What I would like to see happen is superior technological alternatives that will allow unborn persons to live while granting women bodily autonomy, because I have talked extensively to abortion advocates and agree with the principle of respecting the bodily autonomy of both unborn and pregnant persons.
BTW, prolife to me means protecting ALL life of humans and animals, not just unborn human life. Which is why I appreciate the work that Black Lives Matter does.
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Crystal
Thanks for responding back.
"Bringing a child or children into poverty conditions is cruel!"
I agree that it is cruel. Which is why I advocate for fighting poverty, one of the root causes of abortion.
May I ask what led you to advocate for abortion to remain legal?
Enter your email to vote. We won't send you any marketing or solicitation emails.
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Crystal
May I please remind you of the commenting policy:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2/
Please read it before proceeding here. Josh's rules are so strict that even a few of your friends failed to pass muster.
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Wild_Bird
Are you Josh's spokesperson?
If not, then kindly worry about yourself.
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joshbrahm
Wow, she was just trying to help...
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Crystal
Of course not. I simply don't want to see you get banned. I was making friends with PJ4 and Infadelicious and BOOM! They're gone. It was quite a shock to me, and I don't want the same happening to you.
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Wild_Bird
Frankly, after hearing the comments from fellow pro-lifers, including the ones you mentioned, it does not matter to me either way.
Thank you for your concern Crystal. Have a great week. -:)
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Crystal
Have a great week too, Wild_Bird. I deeply appreciate your barrage at me when you misunderstood my position because you clearly and concisely stated my views so well. I hope you don't mind if I borrow it, LOL.
Also please let PJ, Infadelicious, and all the other banned folks and the ones that won't comment for fear of banning know that I appreciated their company, conversation, and contributions, and if they want to see me again they can write in at Secular Pro-Life Perspectives.
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Wild_Bird
Thank you for your comment Crystal.
PJ4 and Infadelicious are great. I hold them both in high regard.
This post will serve as a message to PJ4 and Infa that Crystal holds them in high regard and that you would be happy if they re-connect with you at Secular Pro-Life Perspectives.
Kind regards,
Wild_Bird
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Crystal
Yes, but can they see it?
Please pass the comment on to them via LAN if possible. This is also a message to Jed, Paul, Javelina Harker, etc. I appreciated them so much, LOL.
And thank you!
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Wild_Bird
"Yes, but can they see it?
Please pass the comment on to them via LAN if possible. This is also a message to Jed, Paul, Javelina Harker, etc. I appreciated them so much, LOL.
And thank you!"
I do not have any of their email addresses. My reply to your post on Disqus will have to suffice.
Note you are free to register on Disqus and follow anyone you wish also.
I cannot even see your dashboard.
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Crystal
Hey, this is how you can get it to them:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2408439366
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2408462399
There's a little button at the bottom of each comment that says "Share". You put your cursor over it and see three little icons. The third one will drag the comment address out and create a new tab where you can view the comment to your satisfaction.
I thank you for writing back. Did I say I appreciated your fiery post at me?
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Crystal
"You Pro Life are Domestic Terrorist and should be viewed and dealt with like such!"
How do you know that for sure?
Also, may I point your attention to the comment policy please:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
I am sure that you have a lot to contribute provided you read the commenting policy and observe it properly.
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Wild_Bird
"That's what abortions do ... solve the problem of UNWANTED pregnancies . . ."
If a woman does not want the "problem" of an unwanted pregnancy, then she should take responsibility BEFOREHAND.
If she fails to do that, the unborn baby's inalienable right to life should be protected.
Once the baby's most fundamental human right has been protected and the baby has been born, the mother is free to put that child up for adoption.
Interestingly, your most fundamental human right, the right to be born, was respected yet you would callously deny that same right to others.
Have you no shame?
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joshbrahm
Do you believe that adding the "have you no shame" question is helpful to creating an environment for open and productive dialogue?
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Crystal
I mean this respectfully - sometimes it is necessary.
However if you're wanting to discuss the matter civilly and hopefully persuade people to your views then it's not the best course.
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Crystal
Abortion kills human life. That's why it's bad.
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joshbrahm
You may want to say a more nuanced version of this. There are obviously cases where killing human life is not wrong, like self-defense. I think you mean something like, "abortion kills a valuable person without good justification."
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Crystal
In a way I get your point, but what if they fire back at you, "But there is good justification, it's self-defence etc"?
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Crystal
Could you please explain how and why abortion solves poverty issues, from your perspective?
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Crystal
I could call your movement pro-abort (because I would have good reason to do so), but I won't.
Also, I'm very sad that we can't talk about the things we have in common. I saw you were a multicultural, third-wave, feminist, African-American man, and I thought that was so nice, because I deeply appreciate multicultural, third-wave philosophy. I'd like to talk to you about these things and to understand why you advocate for abortion to remain legal, but I'm not sure I can if you're going to take digs at me the way you did.
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Crystal
I am sorry you feel that way about us. I can assure you we are not terrorists.
I would respectfully ask you not to call us pro-death because it is extremely offensive. If I'm not allowed to say "pro-abort" despite having very good reasons for using the term, then it would be a good thing for advocates for legal abortion to reciprocate the favour, if you understand what I mean.
That put aside, I think we share a lot in common and you would be an interesting person to talk to.
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$93800276
Crystal, I'm totally in your corner on what you wrote. Thank you for such a well - articulated response! 😀
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James of Ireland
It is one thing to be kind no matter what someone says. We are talking killing here! There is NOTHING wrong with righteous indignation toward defenders of slaughtering the innocent! Jesus made that perfectly clear. Being kind is nice to a point. But shaving that point to much and you end up with nothing and the evidence is obvious..the baby loses because of that mans NONSENSE! Being articulate is great on paper!
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joshbrahm
This is becoming a fairly common response from pro-lifers to me and other pro-life advocates like me that try to have positive interactions with pro-choice people. This post might help you understand that we're not telling people to be "too nice:" http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/dont-be-too-nice/
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Crystal
Okay, James, this is how I see it.
I try very hard NOT to be nice to the action of abortion (I struggle in this area because of fear of humanity, more than anything). I consider it morally reprehensible and and have gotten into serious trouble for expressing such a sentiment and similar ones to it on more than one occasion.
However the people need to be reached, and I'm not going to be able to reach them if I start insulting them and using pejorative terms. I'd rather get someone to really think, and reconsider their position by being respectful than put them off by name-calling.
I'm very much for calling a spade a spade, and I understand there is a balance at the same time. You have every right to your anger, James. You are right, babies are dying. However taking out your anger on the action and the causes of the action rather than ridiculing and name-calling the people is the best way to handle this, IMHO.
Please read the comment policy before continuing to comment here as I appreciate your input here and don't want to see you get moderated:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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joshbrahm
Well said, Crystal. :)
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Crystal
Thank you, Thomas!
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$93800276
You're welcome.
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Crystal
I'm glad we sorted out our differences, LOL. Please know I appreciate your stand for unborn persons.
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$93800276
The soul is healed by being with children
~ Fyodor Dostoevsky
But first they have to be born....
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Crystal
Correct :)
When we deny a life by stifling it, we deny ourselves a chance to be blessed.
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joshbrahm
I deleted a lot of comments from you were you calling people names. It would take me too long to find whatever deleted comment you're referring to right now. I think I was being gracious by not banning you for how much name-calling you did. Now I'm going through hundreds of new comments from the last 48 hours, and moderating that.
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acyutananda
I don't know what that deleted comment said. Another person, one of whose comments you deleted, is an online friend of mine. I don't know what that comment said either. But overall I'm clear that your moderation efforts have made this site a better space for dialogue. Thanks for doing the extra work that was required this time.
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joshbrahm
In case you're ever wondering why you were banned, PJ4, it was because of this comment.
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kathleenjelinek
Perhaps Shifty was "triggered" and needs a safe space.
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Crystal
That comment is insensitive to rape victims, spiritual abuse survivors, mentally ill people, and a whole other bunch who have generally suffered.
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kathleenjelinek
Honey I'm not buying the crap your selling. Save it for Salon. Those asshats may take you up your bullshite but not here. Now scat! You are an tremendous waste of space and time.
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Crystal
Please remember the comment policy before proceeding:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
Oh, and this blog is a safe space, for prolifers who want to hear themselves think and advocates for legal abortion who want to explore prolife ideas.
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kathleenjelinek
Go take your meds. Your off schedule.
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Crystal
My friend Josh Brahm will be HIGHLY offended when he sees your comment. If you dislike the comment policy, take it up with him. I'm just trying to enforce the rules:
Oh, and here's a relevant section for you to mull over carefully before proceeding further with any comments here:
"5. I reserve the right to delete your comments. This is my blog. I don’t have an obligation to publish your comments. The First Amendment gives
you the right to express your opinions on your blog, not mine.
Specifically, I will delete your comments if you post something that is,
in my sole opinion, (a) snarky;
(b) off-topic; (c) libelous, defamatory, abusive, harassing,
threatening, profane, pornographic, offensive, false, misleading, or
which otherwise violates or encourages others to violate my sense of
decorum and civility or any law, including intellectual property laws;
or (d) “spam,” i.e., an attempt to advertise, solicit, or otherwise
promote goods and services. You may, however, post a link to your site
or your most recent blog post."
PS: I don't take drugs. I'm a teetotaler.
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kathleenjelinek
You began this conversation not me. I don't care who you are friends with, your threats are of no concern. There is no need to reply, your long winded comments "trigger me". I'm gonna look for a safe space, hooefully government provided.
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Crystal
I didn't threaten you. I simply pointed out that the moderators have strict rules on this blog, and also pointed out that your comments about safe spaces were triggering to survivors of traumatic events. I have no plans to quarrel with you so will leave you to your own devices.
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kathleenjelinek
But I went back and viewed the discussion you were responding to. I have to say the whole thing was pretty much off the wall You were the voice of reason.
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Ann Morgan
Do you bite your lips or cuticles?
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Nope
Let me guess: you do?
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Ann Morgan
So your claim here is that the baby comes out in a painless puff of smoke, and that you don't want to force women to remain pregnant against their will?
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HeadBitchInCharge1
So what you're saying here is that you're incapable of not constructing a strawman?
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GulfCoastGamer
Are you or are you not in favor of banning abortion?
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Crystal
If I was not a vegetarian at heart, of course not, because the steak would be dead. Unborn persons are living.
Ann, I believe I should remind you of the commenting policy; please read it:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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Ann Morgan
Then you're good with clamping off an artery leading to the uterus, right?
Let me guess, dead fetuses are too specialty-special to dismember. Certainly they are too special to do medical research on, such as is often done on other dead bodies, because a dead fetus is so much more important and special than a live infant. Especially since that would get around your real purpose of making the woman suffer as much as possible by removing it in small pieces, rather than one large one.
How about this - I will make you eat a grapefruit. You will prove how easy it is to get a large object through a small hole by letting me stuff it intact, down your throat. If you prefer it be cut up, then you will have proven that you are a forced birth liar.
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Ann Morgan
So, what you are saying here, is that if some pervert is sodomizing a 'pwecious baybee', I should either stand around wringing my hands or go whine about it on the internet, rather than use 'force and violence'.
There is no right to someone else's body. Or any property belonging to someone else. If you have managed to get a hold of or occupy something belonging to someone else, it will be removed, or you will be removed. Even if it is necessary to use 'force and violence'. Even if it costs you your 'very life'. Even if you are really cute and even if spoiled teenage girls are really sad.
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concernedamerican14
There is no right to someone else's body.
If you truly belive this, then why would you spend large sums money attempting to create a baby, to impregnate yourself...
Why do you believe you have a right to a baby's body?
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lady_black
"If you truly belive this, then why would you spend large sums money attempting to create a baby, to impregnate yourself..."
I certainly wouldn't spend any amount of money trying to create a baby, and knowing Ann Morgan, she wouldn't either. That being said, adults who wish to procreate have every right to do so. The right to procreate is in no way, shape or form a "right to someone else's body."
It's the human right of adults to create a family (or not), and you have no right to interfere in that in any way.
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concernedamerican14
Ann stated that she spent 10k trying to get pregnant.
So, you are admitting that Ann is a liar?
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lady_black
So what if she did? That's her right.
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$59629176
I was banned there.
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lady_black
I don't care what they believe. They can sod off.
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lady_black
I hope that's facetious...
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Crystal
From my talks with Shifty, I'm sure it is.
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GulfCoastGamer
That shouldn't bother you much since there are almost no "pro-aborts"
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Crystal
That is a fair answer, IMO. The only way this moral dilemma can be solved in our society is through love. If it's true what you say about hate and abortion, then prolifers who hate people who disagree with them are no better off.
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Crystal
I did, and thought them very good. Will respond back when I can, Shifty, thanks for caring enough to answer!
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Crystal
Fair enough, love. I'll wait.
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Crystal
To him, yes. But please don't stop responding to me, Bucksergeant, as I'm sure you have some valuable insights to offer.
For instance, did you get my question about the idea of abortion being murder being responsible for the massacre that occurred recently? I think that idea is faulty; what do you think?
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Crystal
I am, and I am deeply grieved by it.
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javelinaharker
Back at you. Wherever you roam.
I don't care about affiliation or party or stance, only how I am treated and interacted with. You did not deserve my initial hostility, but I remain accountable for my good faith error in response.
You're not my enemy. Be well.
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Jim_H_Discus
So, this is what they talk like at the grown-up's table. More people should give it a try.
Kudos.
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javelinaharker
Thank you; I work hard at being civil and factual. I can be horrifically nasty -- I view it as a personal weakness -- so I am very, very careful most of the time to remind myself there is a real person on the other end.
I do slip sometimes, especially when I'm stretched thin IRL. Then I take a break. :)
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Jim_H_Discus
Good advice.
Take care.
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Crystal
Did you see my question?
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Progressives_Drool
Do you think you do? Sure sounds that way.
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javelinaharker
With your nod, Shifty, I'm pleased to edit my comments to you to be less abrasive; you've treated me well and I'm happy to PAX. The only reason I haven't is a sense of accountability for my posts, good or bad.
For the record I neither flagged nor reported you.
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Crystal
Please - STOP IT.
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Crystal
I didn't delete anything that I know of, but I did remind him of questions that needed to be answered. How did I delete?
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Crystal
I understand how difficult it can be, Bucksergeant. I do not believe in people stalking others. There wasn't really anything wrong with your three-letter comment, and I know people can hurt others. You have my sympathy as well.
However, I think that, due to Josh's strict rules, it would be best that you stopped responding. You're feeding him every time you write up. Besides, I appreciate your presence here and feel you have much to contribute provided you follow the commenting guidelines.
I would like your opinion on something though: what do you think of the idea that prolifers are responsible for the shooting because they call abortion murder?
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Crystal
Shifty, I must sternly remind you:
According to the comment policy, name-calling and quarrels from other websites are strictly prohibited:
And I quote:
"5. I reserve the right to delete your comments. This is my blog. I don’t have an obligation to publish your comments. The First Amendment gives
you the right to express your opinions on your blog, not mine.
Specifically, I will delete your comments if you post something that is,
in my sole opinion, (a) snarky;
(b) off-topic; (c) libelous, defamatory, abusive, harassing,
threatening, profane, pornographic, offensive, false, misleading, or
which otherwise violates or encourages others to violate my sense of
decorum and civility or any law, including intellectual property laws;
or (d) “spam,” i.e., an attempt to advertise, solicit, or otherwise
promote goods and services. You may, however, post a link to your site
or your most recent blog post."
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Crystal
Jed!
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Crystal
Jed, may I respectfully remind you of the comment policy please:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
Name-calling and off-topic quarrels are not allowed here, only constructive criticism of abortion and life issues.
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New_Jed
Thank you Crystal. Have you also made such a statement to Shifty?
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Crystal
Certainly have been, left and right, to EVERYONE including Shifty. Please read it before continuing your commenting here.
I appreciate your contributions very much but they need to follow the rules.
So tell me - do you think prolifers are responsible for the shooting because they called abortion murder, or not? And if not, why not?
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Paul
I don't thinks it works that way. If you wish to find someone responsible, you need to establish a theory of cause linking the speech to the act as an inseparable link in the chain of events leading to the act. You would need to try to falsify it, to remove the speech and test to see if the act happened anyway. Asking someone to state "why not" is asking them to prove why your supposition is false. It would be up to you to show its truth.
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Crystal
I don't personally have any suppositions, if that's what you mean. It's the opinions of others I'm talking about here.
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Paul
Who? Until you relate that, the opinions of others are indistinguishable from any supposition you might make.
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Crystal
Advocates for legal abortion believe that. I don't. I'm prolife.
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Paul
I see. The term "informed" has multiple meanings. It could mean that your opinions or beliefs are informed by others and It seems that is not the sense you meant. A less archaic way of relating it might be to say that you were told. Informed is too easily confused with instruction by authority to me. But then again, I go all archaic from time to time :-)
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Crystal
It's told, then.
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Paul
Well, if someone told you that speaking what one believes is true is a cause for violence through incitement and therefore confers blame, I would wonder how any truth could be offered without us all being mass murderers. I would say the person making that indictment was practicing deceitful argument by hiding behind the false concern for those who might have violence incited upon them. It's a nifty way to avoid the reality of the idea, make it a taboo subject.
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Crystal
Oh, absolutely!
In other words, "BE SILENT."
I even heard one advocate for legal abortion call for the government to persecute all prolifers because of the bad actions of some. I find such rhetoric distressing.
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Paul
I find it self-serving. I have found little conviction in the positions of "Pro-choicers". It seems more like an issue of convenience to push a flawed ideology to me. A political wedge to divide opponents into discrete clumps so they are less pesky. An elite solution to an unsolvable problem. All it does is justify elites.
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Crystal
Although I have found both positives and negatives in legal abortion advocate philosophy, I agree with you.
Positives: 1) a strong love for bodily autonomy
2) a deep respect for women's choices
and possibly a few other traits. I state this for many reasons, not the least of which is that bodily autonomy and consent arguments can be used to fight forced sterilisation and forced euthanasia, which is good.
For all these, their arguments, no matter how brilliant, cannot justify the wrong that is done every time an innocent human life is snuffed out of the world. They are academic, philosophical attempts to justify the unjustifiable. I'm a simple person, with a simple knowledge that "abortion stops a beating heart" and that is all I need to know.
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New_Jed
"So tell me - do you think prolifers are responsible for the shooting because they called abortion murder, or not? And if not, why not?"
No. Why is it rational to think they would be? Did "prolifers" incite or encourage such an action? Did they they act as accessories before the fact in any way? Are they responsible for Dear's mental illness? I think not to all of the above.
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Crystal
I've been informed that even stating that abortion is murder incites violence and hate.
While I understand where they are coming from in the sense that abortion is not murder in the legal sense, it is murder in the moral sense. I am cautious about the language but care a lot about not compromising the truth of what abortion is.
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Paul
You've been informed? It would be nice to know the source of your information. If it was not murder in the legal sense, wouldn't you be obliged to explain why it would be murder in a moral sense? You state it as a given that it is and I was wondering about the basis for that.
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Crystal
When I say, informed, I don't mean informed in the intellectual sense. I mean in the opinion sense. I've read the opinions of many advocates for legal abortion, which strongly tend towards this view.
I didn't mean to state anything as a given.
"If it was not murder in the legal sense, wouldn't you be obliged to explain why it would be murder in a moral sense?"
Depending on the situation, yes I would.
"You state it as a given that it is and I was wondering about the basis for that."
I state as a given that it is ... what? I ask because I'm confused as to what you're saying.
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Paul
"While I understand where they are coming from in the sense that abortion
is not murder in the legal sense, it is murder in the moral sense."
You state that it is your understanding that "it" (your it) is murder in a moral sense. You have presented it as a given with no reasoning supplied for your belief. To me is is irrelevant whether abortion is murder in a legal sense or a moral sense. It can be murder. All killing isn't murder. All abortions are killing. Are some murder? In my opinion, a great many of them are, in both senses. Whether the law reflects that does not change the fact.
But a lot of the confusion here on both of our parts is the shift from talking about whether Speech describing murder is responsible for another's actions. Did you edit your post? The first time I saw it it had the "it" in it in place of the word abortion. I interpreted that to mean the speech, not abortion. If I misread, my error.
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Crystal
I can't edit. I have a guest account.
I have taken my understanding of how to describe abortion from Josh Brahm's site. He says it in this comment:
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/joshbrahm/why_rhonda_changed_her_mind_about_whether_to_use_the_word_8220pro_choice8221/#comment-2284604723
Yes, my question was whether the speech describing murder was responsible for another's actions. The it meant abortion, not speech.
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Paul
Sorry for the confusion. I have to say I disagree with Josh, hopefully in a respectful way. The whole idea that killing is murder because it is illegal is backwards to me. It is illegal because it is murder. But laws are imperfect things being the art of lawmakers. A law in error that makes a killing a murder when it is not or one that makes a killing justified when it is not, does not change the character of the act. The label doesn't change the ingredients and sometimes can be misapplied. An erroneous label legally sheltering a murder does not make it less of a murder. If the law was changed tomorrow making the killing of people over 6' tall was passed, does that make the killing yesterday of someone 6'2" to not be murder? Is legality retro-active absolution? No, in my mind, it is illegal because it is murder and not that it is murder because it is illegal.
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GulfCoastGamer
At least one definition of murder is "unlawful killing". Some forms of killing are not unlawful and those who kill in those situations are not subject to being charged with murder.
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Crystal
Fair answer. Although it is wise to remember legal issues when dealing with advocates for legal abortion. Good contribution. Thanks for stretching my mind, Paul!
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New_Jed
Paul is extremely adept at mind stretching.
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Crystal
I'd love to see him chat with Acyutananda, another incredibly intelligent prolife man. Those two could do summit ...
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Crystal
I can see that, for sure! He's very smart and will do well here.
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Paul
Yup, just count the bruises on my forehead from the snap-backs :-)
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Crystal
What's a snap-back? Also, I hope I don't bruise you, how could I do that, so I avoid bruising you?
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Paul
It is idiomatic. Don't take offense please, are you a native English speaker?
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Crystal
Yes. One of my big problems in life is that I take people literally.
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Paul
I noticed:-)
You are going to be challenged if you run into Jed or me. Play's on words, double meanings, puns...And heaven help you if you meet up with Javelina... Ha.
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Crystal
I have met up with Javelina. She is a nice lady, I think.
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Paul
She is an intensely good person. But there are times when she makes me blush.
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Crystal
What do you mean?
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Paul
I mean there are times when she makes me blush. A very straight-forward lady, one might even say earthy. A dear friend of mine none the less. I am old and therefore old school. There are some topics and descriptions that just scramble my programming.
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Crystal
I can understand that. She is nice nonetheless.
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Crystal
A Candor.
"Politeness is just deception in pretty packaging" - Christina from Divergent
From what I know, old-fashioned people are less likely to discuss embarrassing topics, yes?
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New_Jed
Speaking to your last sentence: it is a matter of style, and is best tempered by time, place and company.
And to your quote: Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naïve, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best. ~ Robert Heinlein
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Paul
No comment.
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Crystal
My humblest apologies, and I really mean that :(
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Paul
You did not offend me, it was a joke, a play on words. I warned you it would happen :-)
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Crystal
Oooh, okay :)
Divergent is a teen dystopia. Used correctly, it can show up the flaws in the thinking that only certain groups of people are valuable for life.
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Paul
Shot!
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Crystal
Do you mean you think it's cool, then?
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Paul
Just duck when it snaps back :-)
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Crystal
You've given me something good to think about so I think I'll remember it. I will continue to seek to be wise when speaking to advocates for legal abortion but you are right, abortion is murder because it kills unjustly.
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GulfCoastGamer
IMO, there is nothing unjust in a killing necessary to affect escape from involuntary servitude.
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Paul
Many many times this is true. I am not an absolutist, I wouldn't say that all cases are so regardless of the particulars. I would also say that there might be mitigating circumstances that might apply to the woman but for the life of me I cannot understand why that should be extended to corporate third parties licensed to kill on nothing more than the permission of the woman. That one just mystifies me. Just because it is done by doctors, doesn't mean it is medical care. Can a doctor avoid repercussions for running someone over with a car by claiming it is a medical procedure? Why is abortion any different? It is the callous inhumanity of the sophistic rationalization that appalls me most. This is a practice of a civilized society?
I could see how circumstance or indoctrination might make a woman make a bad choice. I don't see how that could possibly excuse the practitioners who commit it.
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New_Jed
Crystal, I neither know nor care to know who "informed" you of that, but they are mistaken. Individual responsibility can never be reasonably transferred to others.
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Crystal
I know. I was viciously attacked for it once. I could show you where it happened. I was informed I was scum for what I believed, basically. It was hurtful. That's one reason I came to Josh - to get help.
You're right, Jed. They are mistaken. Although I believe we need to be careful with our words, I don't believe in compromise on the point either.
"Individual responsibility can never be reasonably transferred to others."
What do you mean?
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New_Jed
"The Devil made me do it" is the oldest excuse in history. The contemporary notion that some group of "others" must be held accountable for one's actions is not only weak and immature, it has a decidedly Marxist flair about it, which tends to make it very popular with modern feminists and leftists.
"Responsibility is a unique concept; it can only reside and inhere within a single individual. You may delegate it but it is still with you. You may share it with others but your portion is not diminished. You may disclaim it but you cannot divest yourself of it. Even if you do not recognize it or admit its presence, you cannot escape it. If the responsibility is rightfully yours, no evasion or ignorance or passing the blame can shift the burden to someone else." ~ Admiral Hyman G Rickover
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Crystal
So in short, these people are coming up with a weak excuse to blame the shooting on other people's words, yes?
I appreciate your explanation about responsibility as well. I am liberal but not Marxist, and I'm betting you're conservative, yes?
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New_Jed
There's a saying in the military: "The effect range of an excuse is zero meters." More people should be made aware of it. Whether the excuse is weak or not is not the point; it is still an excuse. That is to say, it is an attempt to shift the blame and deny individual responsibility. Take, for example, a "hit man" who is hired to commit a murder. That fact that someone else paid him makes him no less guilty of the crime.
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Crystal
That makes sense. The shooter does indeed posses individual responsibility. Are you saying that advocates for legal abortion who argue this way about speech leading to murder are seeking to shift blame?
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New_Jed
Yes. There is such a thing as incitement of others to commit an act, but simply saying, "I believe abortion is murder" does not rise to that level. It is nothing more than the expression of an opinion, not an incitement. If, on the other hand, someone were to say, "You should go out and kill those people who provide abortions," that would be an incitement to commit an illegal (and immoral) act, and is properly against the law. Even if that was the case, it would not absolve the guilty party of the responsibility for his freely chosen actions.
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Crystal
That's a fair answer. I'm sick of prolifers being blamed for this. I feel so strengthened and encouraged after talking to my fellow prolifers; it means so much to me.
Although I'm aware there was one guy who roused a crowd to cheers when he stated that he wanted to see abortion practitioners tried and hung by a legal court. Personally I do not believe in finding joy in death, otherwise that makes us no better than those committing the act. What say you?
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New_Jed
I say he should have been called on it and agree with your conclusion. Personally, I've never seen any but a peaceful protest, and would decry any other.
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Crystal
I know, but to frame all of us for the actions of a few is really dishonest IMO.
That doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that anti-abortion terrorism exists, nor that I am dishonest about its existence. What it means is that I don't engage in it myself, nor would I be friends with anyone who did.
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Crystal
Just curious - why are you thanking me?
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Crystal
Bucksergeant, may I please remind you of the comment policy:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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HeadBitchInCharge1
I have no idea what you're talking about, nor do I have any desire to be invective to you or anyone on Josh's site, so back off please.
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Crystal
Very wise, PJ. Stay out of it if you can.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Indeed, thank you.
I'll be ignoring the venom and bitterness he throws my way
Not really worried about it
I'm just so used to this from them, it's like I'd be surprised if it didn't happen.
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Crystal
Yeah, I knew an advocate for legal abortion who acted horrible to me once. I was in tears by teatime. It was a very intense experience. She humiliated me in front of all my online friends.
I could tell stories ...
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Oh yikes
I'm sorry to hear that :-(
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Can you?
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Crystal
Yeah ... !
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Crystal
Sure no probs.
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Crystal
Thank you for accepting my need for privacy :)
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Crystal
In my early twenties, and I don't feel comfortable explaining online.
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Crystal
Yes, those very ones.
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Crystal
Yeah!
If you don't like it here, take your convos there. I'll see ya :)
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Crystal
Awww ...
Hugs.
I thought it puzzling myself. Perhaps it's a glitch in the system?
You could contact Josh via email:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/contact/
If you don't like his answer, please at least write me one more comment to tell me a place I can come where guest commenting is permitted as I do not possess an account at present due to very unusual circumstances.
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Crystal
Would it be rude of me to request an answer to at least some of them? Of course, you don't have to if you'd rather not.
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Crystal
Shifty, the rules say that you cannot bring quarrels from other blogs onto this one. This is a place for civil discourse about the topic of abortion. I am deeply sorry for any bad treatment people receive on the Internet, however. Please know you have my sympathies.
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Crystal
Hey, you could come to SPL couldn't you?
http://blog.secularprolife.org/
I hope you're not banned there.
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Crystal
Did you see my questions, Shifty?
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Crystal
Because love for strangers is an abstract notion, and as my fellow commenter on TFA said, when humans see something foreign and don't know how to respond to it, a common reaction is anger.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Indeed.
You are quite wise my friend.
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Crystal
Thanks very much :)
I give the credit to a fellow TFA commenter. She is the wise one.
As for the mess this forum is fast becoming again, I think I should tell you that I comment for two reasons: 1) to "minister" to others
2) to argue respectfully with them
All very good reasons I personally don't appreciate quarrels.
I liked you from the moment I saw you :)
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Crystal
Aww, that's okay. It's not a homework assignment! Will be looking forwards to the answers when you can give them, LOL :)
BTW this troll is just abusive. Wade through the entire convo if you have the spoons for it:
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2015/10/07/transgender-woman-attacked-and-killed-as-baptists-advocate-curing-transgenderism-with-prayer/
I've told him what's what. I was called a vile piece of filth, etc. Yet I find it interesting he never answered my questions on life issues. Because his position isn't prolife though he claims to be a conservative Catholic.
Oh, dear, I'm getting off-topic again.
As for your trials I see that Tiki Torch is extremely nasty. She uses several of the same words as Sharon - pro-lout, pro-loafer. She's awful. Prolifers weak and spineless indeed, I'd have shown her a thing or two.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Yeah, I'm not sure she isn't sharon... the writing style is too similar...
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Crystal
I think so too :(
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Crystal
By all rights they should be up there. I didn't see anything wrong with them myself. Possibly the word "pusillanimous" could have cause offence; I don't know why myself.
Thanks for coming back, Shifty!
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Crystal
How's it been going, PJ, other than with Tiki Torch?
I wrote to them again via another email address. It is confirmed. Commenting with a Disqus account is not allowed :(
So if you want to talk to me we'll have to talk here or at SPL, just as I mentioned.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Mostly ignoring or fending off trolls and their sock puppets
I hope they don't follow me onto Josh's site :-/
Oh you could also come onto COTR
I'm there a lot too
But I like Josh's site
He's so nice
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Crystal
If the trolls follow you and start being insulting, Josh will warn them or ban them. No worries, PJ.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
You're right
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Crystal
What's COTR? Does it allow guests to comment?
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GulfCoastGamer
COTR allows all Disqus registered folks to comment. That said, the reality is that, if you're not sufficiently right wing, you'll soon be banned from posting there even if you're civil in your approach
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Crystal
While I think their articles are interesting, I'm too left-wing for them generally - not always, but generally, I think.
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GulfCoastGamer
I hear that. It may be that your generally "pro-life" position saves you.
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Crystal
What do you mean?
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GulfCoastGamer
I mean that they are somewhat outspokenly "pro-life" and sharing that position with them has resulted in them cutting you some slack with regard to other issues on which you may be to their left.
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Crystal
Probably true, LOL :)
They would be more likely to listen to me because of it, I think.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
Chicks on the right
And I'm not sure
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Crystal
I had a talk to them. Unfortunately, no guest commenters either. Ugh. Looks like it'll have to be SPL or ERI for us then.
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Crystal
I see you're having a tough time with Tiki Torch :(
I'm having a tough time dealing with a nasty person at TFA who hates trans people :(
Welcome to the club!
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Crystal
Hi, PJ, it's me again :)
On a case like eight-year olds carrying to term, I believe sensitivity on both sides is required, especially as there won't be an answer that will satisfy everyone.
Here's what Josh had to say about it:
https://disqus.com/home/discussion/joshbrahm/why_rhonda_changed_her_mind_about_whether_to_use_the_word_8220pro_choice8221/#comment-2286489209
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lady_black
You can't kill someone by not breathing for them. Just saying...
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Crystal
lady_black, it's a pleasure to have you here. However, please let me respectfully draw your attention to the commenting policy:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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lady_black
What is wrong with what I said? It's the truth. I see no policy violation.
To be honest, I see this philosophically.
For most of history, men have had their way with just about everything. There's just this one little thing men have never controlled. That's pregnancy and birth.
For a long time, nobody cared, either. It would have been seen as unseemly for a man to even discuss "women's business" much less have any part of it.
All that started to change with the advent of modern contraception. Once men realized they would no longer be in charge, and would have to share some of the power, well, some men have a tough time with accepting that. Some responded by coming down on the only area that has always been under the control of women. So now, there is objection to IUDs and birth control pills based on the off chance that a fertilized ovum might not implant. And women need a permanent scar and loss of fertility to justify saving their lives from a tubal pregnancy. It's all pretty nonsensical, and it's all pretty new.
Don't get me wrong. I love my kids, and I've never had an abortion. That's more good luck than good management. I was just lucky. I was never that woman with pulmonary hypertension who was 11 weeks pregnant, and a mother of four other kids. If I had been, would I have aborted? You had better believe it. I place primary value on my own life, and the lives of the kids who are here and depending upon me. And that would be that. There can be other pregnancies.
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Crystal
Nothing is wrong with what you said.
I wanted to let you know in advance what Josh's rules are so you don't break them, because I want you to be able to comment here without repercussions.
Civil disagreement is very much welcome here, however, and I appreciate your sharing your thoughts on the topic at hand.
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lady_black
Danke.
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Crystal
Gern geschehen.
(Hope I got it right, LOL)
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lady_black
Who said anything about forcing to abort. Learn to read, for Pete's sake.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
No one's talking about forcing anyone to do anything, right?
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lady_black
You finally get it! Congratulations. Except, of course, the act of rape is very much a forcible act.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
And except of course, the act of killing the child in the womb is also very much a forcible and violent act.
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lady_black
That's your opinion.
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lady_black
The role a woman plays isn't theirs to determine.
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joshbrahm
I'm banning you for repeatedly being snarky and calling another commenter "as dumb as a box of hammers."
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joshbrahm
I deleted your comment because it was entirely off-topic. This is not a place to copy and paste diatribes about other issues. If you do that again, expect to be blocked. As our comments policy says, this isn't a free speech zone. It's not about discourse about every topic under the sun. That's not why people come to this site. They come for clear thinking about abortion and practical dialogue tips.
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Crystal
Actually, I did try to tell him that.
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joshbrahm
I deleted a lot of the exchange that was bickering about what other supposedly did at other sites. I left a lot of the exchange that strayed off topic but was still a good example of people being kind and curious about each other. Not banning you, Shifty.
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joshbrahm
I'm deleting this comment due to our comment policy.
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HeadBitchInCharge1
I figured as much
And again, apologies
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joshbrahm
I'm deleting this comment due to our comment policy: http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2/
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Crystal
I have been asked a few times by at least one advocate for legal abortion why it is I am friends with them. Let me explain.
This
person is operating from the point where PLs say abortion is murder.
They say that if I say abortion is murder and compare it to slavery and
the Holocaust, how can I be friends with them? You see, would you sit
down to lunch with a nazi or a slaveholder? No? Then why would you treat
an advocate for legal abortion this way? Isn't it inconsistent with
what you believe to be friends with an advocate for legal abortion yet
say abortion is morally reprehensible because it takes an innocent human
life? What about the fact that since PLs are friends with advocates for
legal abortion yet hate what they do they mustn't believe unborn
persons are real people for sure, and they are doing it because it makes
them feel superior and they want power over others. The worst part of
their claims is that people like this shooter are the most morally
consistent because they act out what they believe, that abortion is
murder and then they shoot people to stop murder. How can you answer
such claims????
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joshbrahm
I'm probably coming from a different perspective than your friend thinks all pro-lifers are coming from, perhaps a more nuanced perspective.
I don't call abortion "murder," although I think it's killing. I don't often compare it to slavery or the Holocaust, because while there are some valid comparisons, there are often a lot of comparisons between the two that would be disanalogous. I don't think most aborting women are as culpable as SS officers were who killed Jews, because I think it was a lot more obvious to an SS officer that he was killing a person than it is for a pregnant woman who has been lied to about what is actually in her womb.
I think the single most effective way to change a mind about abortion is in the context of friendship. I've written many of the reasons for this as well as several case studies here: http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/category/relational-apologetics/
There's even an abortionist in Utah that wants to get together with me to discuss the issue. I would take that appointment, because it's my best shot at changing her mind. I think we've written a very thorough case in this post for why we're opposed to violence, so what's the alternative? I think loving people and having a good exchange of ideas is the answer.
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Crystal
"I don't think most aborting women are as culpable as SS officers were
who killed Jews, because I think it was a lot more obvious to an SS
officer that he was killing a person than it is for a pregnant woman who
has been lied to about what is actually in her womb."
Another point - when most people realise what abortion truly is, they forsake it. And I agree they are not as culpable, although they are not entirely blameless; they did have a hand in it. Also they say, there are pictures of ultrasounds and lots of pregnancy info with full-coloured photos so there is no excuse; they know fully, don't they?* I was informed on mentioning this that ignorance is no excuse, I think because would you excuse Germans who didn't know what was happening to the Jews? How do you answer such people?
I do, however, hold abortion practitioners highly accountable because they possess the full knowledge of the action but they do it anyway.
*I think bodily autonomy plays a huge role in this - getting rid of an unborn person despite its personhood not because it isn't a person (as you stated once).
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Jim_H_Discus
Crystal:
Could you qualify what you mean by the terms "personhood" or being a "person"? Is it automatically bestowed by virtue of having human DNA, or does it require something additional; e.g., a soul or sentience?
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Crystal
I think it means, one who is potentially capable of or is actually sentient and sapient. I haven't really thought about it.
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Jim_H_Discus
Thank you for clarifying. I would tend to go with the latter; i.e., actually sentient and sapient.
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Crystal
Thanks for answering, Josh. This question has torn at me so much.
You ever seen the movie Final Solution? It deals with the topic of racism in South Africa, where a young man wanted to start a nazi movement similar to the one in Germany. You know who changed his mind? His girlfriend asking him to think through things dealing with racism. His education, making him read Cry, the Beloved Country. And most of all, a black pastor whose unconditional forgiveness broke him down when he tried to assassinate him. If those people who say this are right then they were friends with a nazi-minded individual, weren't they? They didn't believe what they said when they stated that blacks were people with rights, did they?
Sometimes I wonder if I am being inconsistent when I talk about these things with people. I suppose their question is, if you really care about what you believe, that abortion takes innocent human life, why are you friends with me? Because it's a game for you and it makes you feel morally superior. That hurts so much. The thought of betraying what I think is very painful yet how can you reach people with the truth if you don't speak it in love?
"I don't call abortion "murder," although I think it's killing."
After that conversation with you I have tried to stay away from saying that. My friend brought up I had said that it was cold-blooded murder, and worked from that angle even after I tried to explain to her that I tried to speak in a more nuanced fashion on the topic due to your influence.
I think you're fair to say that legally, it's not murder. Morally, however, it is. And we're trying to get people to see that.
"I don't often compare it to slavery or the Holocaust, because while there are some valid comparisons, there are often a lot of comparisons between the two that would be disanalogous."
In a way I agree with you! Because the example of abortion isn't politically close to nazism, but it's actually closer to slavery, because in both cases slavery and abortion you were/are in a democratic society where these issues could/can be changed by due process of law. Not so with nazism.
Can you please explain how it would be both analogous and disanalogous to compare abortion to slavery (and if you can, nazism as well)? Please tell, I am interested, it would be so helpful :)
I realise that abortion is analogous to nazism in the sense that it has that mentality of being tied up with eugenics, would I be correct in saying that? Also is there a difference between rationally pointing out similarities and differences between the two, and saying "All pro-aborts have the mindset of a nazi"?
"I don't think most aborting women are as culpable as SS officers were who killed Jews, because I think it was a lot more obvious to an SS officer that he was killing a person than it is for a pregnant woman who has been lied to about what is actually in her womb."
I told my friend that and she said it was irrelevant, I think because the implication was because you wouldn't be so excusing of Germans who didn't know, would you? She asked me if a German told you it was totes cool to kill a Jew "because he didn't know any better" would you be friends with him long? How about a guy beating and battering innocent little babies in his backyard, all because he "didn't know any better"? Also would you honestly spend the time with a nazi or slaveholder trying to convert him? If you wouldn't why would you spend time with people who believe in abortion? She told me she's seen racists talk and she would never be friends with one, so why would a prolifer be friends with a "pro-abort", because "I wouldn't want to be friends with a Nazi, would you"? I suppose there is a huge disconnect between calling people nazis and being friends with them; I see her point entirely on name-calling! My rational mind tells me there's something wrong with all this stuff but my emotions go very haywire on receiving those kinds of replies. For instance, we don't have nazism or slavery around today like we used to. But we do have abortion; it's our new civil rights issue. So we have to, as a friend of mine said, get people aware of the problem and turn public opinion against it. It's the best way, especially as the law isn't exactly on our side.
I think what she was trying to say is that language is important. We walk a fine line between compromising our convictions by being too soft with the language (yes, there is such a thing!) and being too harsh with the language and thereby turning people away from our message.
"I think the single most effective way to change a mind about abortion is in the context of friendship."
I will certainly look at your links that you have provided! Also I agree with you about friendships. I am aware of how you helped sow a few seeds in the mind of one of your friends, thus encouraging her to come around. That was wonderful, though I know you didn't be friends with her to change her mind. Yet you've said, your first agenda is loving a person, yes? If that's so, would that logically apply to slaveholders and nazis, the scum of the earth, if you were living during those times? And no, I don't generally consider advocates for legal abortion (meaning my next-door neighbour, my teacher, my friend) "the scum of the earth" although there are times I absolutely hate what they believe on this issue and am horrified that anyone could hold such views.
"There's even an abortionist in Utah that wants to get together with me to discuss the issue. I would take that appointment, because it's my best shot at changing her mind. I think we've written a very thorough case in this post for why we're opposed to violence, so what's the alternative? I think loving people and having a good exchange of ideas is the answer."
What's the alternative? You answered it yourself. The point I think is the language. They're trying to say if you're going to call someone a nazi and compare abortion to the holocaust don't be surprised if someone acts on your words even if you're too cowardly to do it yourself, also why would you say someone has the mindset of a nazi yet be friends with them? Personally I've tried to stay away from language that would accuse people, and deal with actions and why I morally disagree. I don't think I have ever accused anyone of being a nazi or slaveholder or anything like that. I don't know why but for some reason when people see me they respect me, and I deeply appreciate that :)
You're doing the right thing, Josh. I applaud your efforts. Yet can you be close friends with an abortion practitioner, or would your conscience forbid it? Also, do you believe that articles dealing with anti-abortion violence (not single shooters like this guy) as it comes to bombing abortion clinics and terrorising abortion practitioners is made-up stuff to smear the PL movement or does it occur? I ask because you seem to know a few people in the PL movement very well.
Some would ask, due to the comparisons that others have given, if you could be so kind to an SS officer. But would you consider such a comparison disanalogous? How to answer these people I know not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My question is, I think, how can you answer such comparisons? What are the right words to say, that can show them you are genuine about what you believe yet you don't advocate for violence?
The funny thing is, this scripture runs in my mind (I'm not a Christian but was raised as one) which says in Daniel 12:3, KJV version, "And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever." That is what you're doing with your work. That is what all of us pro-lifers are meant to do. That is what we do every time we stand up for the truth. That's why we shouldn't give up. But can such a scripture apply to those other groups of people who oppressed and killed others for gain?
I want to apologise for rambling on and on and sounding like a stuck record but I'm so confused, and struggling to work it out, and I'm reaching out for help. I suppose I've spouted out a lot of nonsense but thanks for answering my questions! Also if I think of anything else I'll say, if that's okay. Thanks for allowing me to vent. I want to be rational when answering, consistent, peaceful, kind, uncompromising, loving, etc.
I think if we can change one person's mind on abortion, we've done a good deed. Just as much as if we peacefully campaign against the barbaric trade of dogs and cats being eaten for meat in South Korea and China, or any other human rights injustice. I hope you will be deeply rewarded in yourself today as you continue your work of reaching people for the truth.
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joshbrahm
I'm sorry, I can't respond to this many questions right now. I can't get into all of the proper and improper analogies to slavery and the holocaust here. I imagine we will write detailed and well-researched articles on these topics in the future.
The single point I made about it is sufficient (I think) to answer your friend. My friendship with a pro-choice person is not remotely analogous to being friends with someone who personally beats up babies in his back yard every day, because in the latter case it is painfully obvious to a person with a working conscience that this is wrong. I don't think abortion is nearly as obvious to many pro-choice people.
I don't know if I could be close friends with an abortion practitioner. Whether we could have lots of conversations like I did with Deanna would probably depend on how open-minded he or she was. Whether we would truly be friends would probably depend on whether we both cared about each other and were seeking each others flourishing. It's complicated. An abortion practitioner may think that flourishing for her is continuing to do abortions, and I would think that flourishing is abandoning that work.
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Crystal
I can appreciate your dilemma, DGCJ. It's just that Josh's site is a safe space to discuss life issues and Josh doesn't like things taken off-topic.
What do you personally believe about all this? Do you think that comparing the practice of abortion to slavery caused this guy to go out and shoot people, or do you think it namecalling people who had abortions, or do you think it was deeper than that? Also do you think there is a difference between condemning an action someone does and condemning the person themselves?
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Crystal
Excuse me, but this is entirely off-topic and could be treated as spam. Please repeat your comment somewhere else and read the commenting policy before proceeding further:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
Josh's blog is being treated like a rugby field at the moment and I'm not appreciating it.
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Crystal
My apologies, I've repeated myself and I saw you'd already answered my question about the PL movement and this guy. Very humbly sorry!
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Crystal
How to relate to those who are rude to you on the Internet or in real life:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/dont-be-too-nice/
See, Josh has advice on a great many topics. He is a very smart man I've found :)
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Crystal
So do I :)
What's your opinion? Do you think that saying "the act of abortion is murder and morally repugnant" has any relationship to what this shooter did, or do you think something else drove him to it? Do you think it was calling advocates for legal abortion "nazis" and "baby-killers" that pushed this guy over the edge? I'd really appreciate your opinion on this, as I don't see how calling out an action and rationally explaining the similarities between abortion and slavery could result in hatred and murder, but I can see how defamatory and highly inflammatory language against a person or a group of people might encourage such actions.
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Crystal
Thank you for the compliments :)
That Javelina woman seems fair. It's a pity I never got to speak to her. If you could encourage her to come onto this site again I do hope for the chance of a word with her!
Also Josh Brahm, Wholovesorangesoda, Guest, Acyutananda, and a few others are nice people that you can have reasonable conversations with about this topic. They won't scream at you and will disagree in love.
"I guess my disconnect is that I cannot seem to grasp why you would have hated women who chose abortion."
I was a very young person at the time. Since I was aware of the barbaric nature of the act, and I listened to and read what prolifers had to say on abortion and other life issues a lot, I felt horror at the thought that anyone could do something so dastardly towards an innocent child. I have never lost that horror, but that feeling of repugnance transferred into hating women who had abortions. As I was ignorant of the many desperate circumstances many women who commit such an act find themselves in, I perceived them to be cold-blooded murderers who had killed their children because they were selfish, and I believed that such people deserved very harsh treatment. However, as I continued to read and educate myself via feminist theory and pro legal abortion literature as well as prolife literature, both that and the tokophobia disorder I am recovering from helped to change my mind on hating the people having abortions, though not on the act itself, long before I began speaking to advocates for legal abortion. And talking to these people who disagreed with me on this issue cemented the view I was predisposed towards, that the prolife movement was in dire need of reform. By that time my hatred for women having abortions was long gone.
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Crystal
I suspect on their side there would be a bunch of whining and howling, although I would wonder why, as I thought they were concerned with precious little unborn babies.
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Crystal
Isn't women's rights one of the reasons such inventions are supposed to exist?
Also, to save unborn people's lives. Since all life is precious from the moment of conception we should seek to protect it by whatever means possible.
Here's a comment I wrote about some of the problems in the PL
movement; please take a read of it and tell me what you think of it in general. Also do you believe that the PL movement would improve if such techniques were employed as suggested:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2396781480
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Crystal
Now, folks, with all due respect, if you want to sling mud at each other, PJ, Ann, Expect Resistance, you can't do it on this blog. Josh has very strict rules about the way this place is run and this is the kind of thing that could get everyone banned. Please read his commenting policy before continuing:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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Crystal
I did.
Why do you say that? I would appreciate your backing up your statements please as I am open to learning about the integrity of every single person I chat with.
Also, I don't know the details but I'm aware that PJ and fiona64 have had a few run-ins (and no, I didn't ask PJ for specifics or anything). Of course if she is a compulsive liar I'm sure I'll find out eventually. However, I prefer not to take sides in online quarrels, and to believe a person innocent until proved guilty beyond a doubt. As I told another commenter, I care about every person I interact online with and prefer to speak civilly to people. So I will be kind to everyone - whether it's PJ or fiona64 or whoever else it is.
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Anonymous
RH and LAN do indeed have some things in common. But only the former has the words "reality check" in its title despite publishing Amanda Marcotte. That holds trump as far as I'm concerned.
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Crystal
<3 Awww ...
I do my best, is all I can say :)
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Crystal
Hugs. I understand now. It's okay. Being abusive to one another won't help matters, I don't think. Keep thinking these things through, always. Never be afraid to ask questions and read here, all right?
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Crystal
At ERI they believe in treating those they disagree with with kindness. Anyone who insults on this website is warned. If they persist, they are shown out the door. His rules are strict for a reason. You will be treated well here, and Josh and his team love to think through issues in a reasonable fashion rather than insulting those they disagree with.
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Crystal
Well, we live and learn :)
There was a time I had a deep hatred in my heart for all women who had had abortions and was appalled when prolifers reached out to one in love and forgiveness. Now that I have read why women do it I am not inclined to be so harsh as I once was although I still consider their action to be morally reprobate. Also talking to advocates for legal abortion has stretched my horizons like you would not believe.
You see, even before I came across Josh's site I had these beliefs. But he has strengthened them. And I am not the only one who cares for these things. If you hang around ERI website you will find that Josh and his team believe the way I do - deplore the action but love the person. So if ever you want to talk to Josh about this stuff feel free, I'm sure he'll try to answer you though he is a very busy man. He was kind enough to let me know he couldn't answer all my questions before he stopped responding to me but I hope he'll continue writing back again :*)
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Crystal
Shifty, could you please do something for me? Could you send Josh another email explaining that PJ has decided to settle down and is at present not committing behaviour worthy of banning? It would mean so much to me if you could do this for me, as I appreciate valuable insight from all angles.
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Crystal
Agreed 100%!
I think such devices are key to finalising the abortion debate once and for all, although they don't completely answer the dilemma of adoption or parenting and those issues would have to be worked out as well, for this to really succeed.
I'm not sure what kinds of "reasons" fanatics could come up with to condemn such life-saving devices though. Could you expound?
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lady_black
The problem, Crystal, is that once grown, the chorionic tissues cannot be re-grown. These are part of the embryo, and are grown by the embryo, in the same way that organs and other tissues develop. They can no more be re-generated than an arm can be regenerated, once amputated. It's gone forever. The theoretical artificial uterus could thus only be used for pregnancies that were conceived within the artificial uterus.
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Crystal
Thanks; you've just given me another difficulty to work through and I appreciate that. Do you mind if I ask for a source please? BTW I've saved your comment in my files so I can reread it for future reference.
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lady_black
A source? OK, I'll see if I can find one. This is something I've learned through formal education. But frankly dear, where would you think the placenta, umbilical cord, and chorion amnion come from? It comes from the embryo.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Placenta
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Crystal
Thank you for offering to find the source, and I appreciate the article you've given me so far.
BTW if you don't mind my mentioning it, my online name is Crystal rather than "dear".
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lady_black
That's what I called you.
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Crystal
This is what I was referring to: "But frankly dear"
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Crystal
Thanks in abundance!
I'm not so sure what was so innocent about my comments though, if you wouldn't mind expounding. I'm not trying to be vain or harp on too much but I really would like to understand.
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Crystal
Williamdiamon, please don't say such things. This is the kind of speech that could get you in serious trouble here. Please read Josh Brahm's commenting policy before continuing:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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Crystal
That doesn't justify cutting off its only life supply. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt to employ science and move it to another place once we have developed the equipment to do so either.
The relationship between pregnant and unborn person is so unique it is the only way the ZEF can survive, for the present.
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acyutananda
"That doesn't justify cutting off its only life supply."
I agree. The statement "life can be cruel" is meaningful only because of the fact that life can be compassionate also. If not for that fact, "life can be cruel" would not mean anything.
In other words, "life can be cruel" makes it clear that there is an alternative to being cruel. Therefore, as you say, the fact that life can be cruel does not justify being cruel.
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Crystal
You are a smart man, LOL :)
I couldn't have argued it better myself!
Life is compassionate every time someone stands for something just. We must cherish it otherwise we will have a devastating price to pay. You would agree, correct?
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acyutananda
I agree, and I think that the devastating price is not just incidental. The devastating price is a toll on our mental peace and mental expansiveness (a "bad conscience"). When we do wrong, our mind shrinks, and when we do right, our mind grows bigger. The devastating price is not just an incidental effect of doing wrong, it is how we know we have done wrong. (And an expanded, peaceful mind is how we know we have done right.) I think that ultimately this, not any logical proof, is the only way we know right from wrong.
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Crystal
My mother would say that sin narrows your perspective. She is a Christian, BTW.
And you're absolutely right. It's called the conscience.
"When we do wrong, our mind shrinks, and when we do right, our mind grows bigger."
That is a very fascinating way of looking at it. How did you come by that interpretation?
Doing wrong like this corrupts our society, and contributes significantly to moral and social decay. We have so many rights but what is their meaning if my basic right to live is not respected? I am here to amuse myself during my breaks from working for the Elite System, nothing more. At least, this is what it reads to me.
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acyutananda
"How did you come by that interpretation?"
That is to be found within Indian philosophies, and it seems correct to me based on my vast experience of doing wrong and occasionally right.
I will ask you a question about the Elite System later, but right now I have to go do something for a while (hopefully something right, this time).
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Crystal
Elite System = the system our society is run on. We go to work. We put our kids in school. Our doctors make life and death decisions over our bodies. That system.
Please, tell me more about Indian philosophies as it relates to this topic. I find Indian thought very fascinating :)
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acyutananda
"My mother would say that sin narrows your perspective. She is a Christian, BTW."
But that idea is probably based on the same subjective experience of the mind as the idea of shrinking.
"more about Indian philosophies as it relates to this topic"
A http://www.NoTerminationWithoutRepresentation.org/dismantling-the-bodily-rights-argument-without-using-the-responsibility-argument/ on bodily rights refers to Indian philosophy (as a possibility only, and without mentioning it by name) in relation to moral intuitions. Search in that post for "transcendent experience". I'd be happy to say more about Indian philosophy, but it would be better to discuss it in the comments section of that post, since it would be off-topic here.
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Crystal
"But that idea is probably based on the same subjective experience of the mind as the idea of shrinking."
Why do you say that?
I looked in your article, and tried to find "transcendent experience" via the search engine, and couldn't. I also found it a little difficult to comment (I am using Tor at the moment). I hope you don't mind if I take my questions on Indian philosophy to SPL instead then.
This forum has become a mess. People accusing each other, taking issues off-topic (and I confess I took things off-topic myself somewhat); could you come down and help sort this out please? It would mean so much to me as I don't want these folks getting banned when Josh comes back.
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acyutananda
"I looked in your article, and tried to find 'transcendent experience' via the search engine"
Hmm. It's there. Don't include the quote marks in the search. Please try searching with your browser's Search (usually Ctrl-F) rather than the blog's Search.
"I am using Tor at the moment"
At the bottom of the blog post, below all the other
comments, can you see "Leave a Reply"? There you just need to give your name and a comment -- no need to give email address or website. There our discussion would be on-topic. But if that doesn't work, SPL would be okay.
"help sort this out"
I know what you mean about the mess, but I don't have any authority here and don't think any commenters would listen to me. Moreover, Josh might just find any attempts of mine to be further complicating things. Someone has deleted all the Snarkalicious comments (funny though they were, in a way) -- wasn't it Josh who did that? Maybe he's on the case.
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Crystal
I found "transcendent experience". But I couldn't comment on your website though I did what you said. Must be the browser :(
I hope you don't mind taking it to SPL!
As for the mess, you're very wise to stay out of it. I want your opinion: do you think my attempts to referee are in need of improvement or did I do well on the whole, or both? I'm asking because if I need correction I don't mind having it, rather than trying to be self-centered :)
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acyutananda
Hmm. This comment of yours about "transcendent," "SPL" and "mess" is so similar to the comment you posted just 5 min. earlier, that I'm wondering if it appeared to you that the earlier one had not gone through. And in fact a copy of the earlier one didn't reach my email -- only a copy of this one I'm replying to. Was there some small Disqus glitch?
I thought your attempts to referee were obviously coming from a positive place in you and therefore could only be well-taken by everyone including the moderator. They may have had some effect, even if it wasn't a complete solution. Actually I could have made a moral appeal of that sort also -- it was a more authority-based approach that I felt I would be unable to attempt. Some commenters wouldn't be familiar with me -- some might not even be familiar with you -- but for those who are familiar, I would think that I would have less moral authority than you, because it's obvious that you love everybody. I actually love everybody also, but I often make little effort to make that clear.
Please send me a post somewhere in the SPL world.
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Crystal
There was a Disqus glitch. On seeing my first attempt didn't carry through I tried again and this time it worked :)
Thanks for the praise; it's very sweet of you and it feels like a shower of petals on my head. I'm happy to know I was helpful to the moderator as well! Just curious - how do you know I love everyone?
I don't like online fights, especially having been the target of being picked to bits by a whole group of people - it happened at least twice, and was a very painful experience :*(
I'll take my comments about Indian philosophy here then. Look for me there, and I'll try to get there ASAP:
http://blog.secularprolife.org/2015/12/what-creates-babies-sex-or-choices.html
Oh, and I owe you an apology. I have been a very naughty girl by not answering all your comments though I said I would, but I think in this case it is somewhat forgivable (if you will excuse my saying so) as I have been studying for an exam!
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Crystal
In case I didn't make it clear I deeply appreciate your praise. Please don't feel teary-eyed over my words. Speaking the truth in love needs to be normal standard procedure for all truth-bearers.
I'm sorry for asking so many questions but I wanted to be certain you were praising me and not upset at me. In short I did not want to misread your comments. Thanks so much. However, if I have misread you I apologise. If I have not I appreciate!
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Crystal
In other words, you're saying I think through things in contrast to just shouting "baby-killer", I take it? Thank you for the praise :)
"I am almost brought to tears by the innocence of your comment."
Can you explain that one, please?
How to make a guest comment: Type in a comment. Where it says, "I'd rather post as a guest" with a little check button, you tick the button and you don't have to sign in. Then you can comment as a guest. Try it if you like and see how that works, and if you don't find my explanation helpful I don't mind trying to tell you again :)
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Crystal
How is my summation foreign to you? I don't understand, but if you wouldn't mind explaining I could get where you're coming from a little better.
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Crystal
My friend, I feel I need to tell you something. This kind of speech is not tolerated on this website. I realise you're vexed with Shifty because he has been most unkind to you yet this site exists primarily for the purpose of education and constructive debate. Please read the comment policy carefully, as I care a lot about your being able to comment in peace and freedom here and feel you have a lot to contribute provided you follow the commenting rules:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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javelinaharker
Perhaps it's just that I don't view this as a war to be won or lost by argument alone. When all the science and the legal citations and the studies and the religious/secular arguments clear, it still comes down to a very personal determination.
I read, reply, think. I trust others do too, even if we end up on opposing sides. Both your advocacy and mine are useful in the light of the humble realisation that those reading both of us will, in the end, follow their own North Stars -- we're both only signposts.
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Crystal
I am trying to stick with Number 1, your answer is fair and I agree with it :)
Condemning the ACTION is not a point I can compromise on. It must be spoken of in the strongest of terms.
The PEOPLE who practice the action must be shown understanding and love even while we deplore the practice.
So I try to be careful about my language, not to compromise nor to cause unnecessary offence when I can reach someone for the truth.
Read Josh's articles. They are thought-provoking and I am a great admirer of him :) You won't feel hated as you read, I can assure you :)
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Crystal
Equal Rights Institute, and this site is a branch of it.
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Crystal
Okay.
What's the difference between saying: 1) Your actions could lead you down a morally reprehensible path because your beliefs are off-base/; you are advocating for something morally reprehensible
2) You're a fan of genocide
Which statement is more productive?
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Crystal
I can't exactly speak for him, but I think so if you're willing to change your ways and not do them again.
ERI is a very young organisation, a fledgling in fact. As of present he doesn't have much time to comment and he is keeping it strict due to time constraints, but hopes to debate a little better in the future :)
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Crystal
That's okay. I had a dear friend banned and I don't want the same happening to you. I know you will contribute greatly if you read the comment policy and abide by the rules :)
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Crystal
Do you think there is any difference between calling out the practice of abortion in strong language and demonising the people who have and perform abortions?
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Crystal
That's okay.
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Crystal
The only way an unborn person can live for the present is by being attached to something else. Is it not cruel to cut off its only means to life?
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GulfCoastGamer
I'd say no if keeping it alive involves holding a woman in a state of involuntary servitude. i.e. I do not object to a killing when it's a necessary component of freeing a person from slavery.
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lady_black
No.
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Crystal
Have you heard of the NASA definition of life?
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javelinaharker
I agree that pregnancy 100% falls on a woman's body. Pregnancy is an eminently predictable avoidable outcome, though. Humans are not parthenogenetic.
I'm actually glad you're asking me these questions and taking the stand you are; I tend to avoid the more frothingly vituperative posters, because it isn't productive for me. I'm not interested in being right -- like my being "right" means anything! -- only chewing on the issues.
I firmly believe in a woman's right to choose her sexual behaviour, and (as arguable as this is in con circles) to have access to birth control. No woman should ever be forced into sex. No woman, IMO, should be deprived secular medical prophylactic-preventative technology.
But with this authority and personal autonomy and technology comes responsibility. Women are not destined to be slaves of circumstance, we are not infants who need to be coddled, we are not stupid or dependent or inferior. We do not need abortion as it's being implemented now. We can do better, show ourselves as better, with even a modicum of applied planning and self-discipline.
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Crystal
I love all people, Shifty. You and her. Advocates for legal abortion and my fellow prolifers. I want peace and respect in commenting forums so I try to set a good example.
BTW that is the kind of comment that could get you in trouble - name-calling is not permitted on this site. It's a safe space where prolifers and advocates for legal abortion can respectfully debate and discuss their differences, and hopefully learn from each other. I share my friend's mission. There is too much hostility between the two sides already.
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Crystal
I am from The Friendly Atheist, if that's what you mean, so I could be :)
You are not to feel bad about the way people treat you if you personally had nothing to do with anything to cause them to go beserk on you. The problem is on their side, not yours.
I agree being accused of not taking our words seriously by refusing to commit violence, then being accused of committing violence, boggles the mind. I have a couple thoughts here, dealing precisely with that subject, arguments you might find thought-provoking and helpful:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2389713979
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2393898255
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2387892637
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Crystal
If I've mistaken your identity for that of another person I owe you an apology :(
It's just that I spoke to someone who had a picture and a name very similar to yours.
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Crystal
I remember we met once, on TFA. You were being ganged up on and I was kind to you. Remember that incident? BTW I'm against trolling. I'm a frequent commenter here and I care about Josh's rules being followed a lot.
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Infadelicious
waht is TFA? Is that the Friendly Atheist site where the so called atheists spend their time bashing Christians and bashing a God they don't believe exists? i think i remember one person being nice to me..
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Crystal
That was me! And yes, it is The Friendly Atheist site. I'm not a troll and if I made a mistake on your identity I apologise.
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Infadelicious
No it was me, and i was quickly banned from ATF for asking them why they bash a God they don't believe in since that would be like bashing the existance of the Easter bunny.. They fight pretty hard against something they claim doesn't exist... It didn't bother me being banned, it was a poisonous nasty atmosphere.. and i do remember you . I apologize but you do not have an accessible profile so i did not know if you were friend or foe.. I only came on this site cause i followed a friend here the other day, i was quickly called a Ho by SHIFTY who claims to not remember it and also claims he is full of love. Another nasty followed me here to pile on with shifty, hence the crickets... i didn't respond to him for a week of his stalking and he's angry. So when you replied i thought you were attacking..I apologize for calling you a troll. HOpe you have been well .. is it a friend of yours that runs the site? It gets nasty here from what i have seen.
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Crystal
Yes, it is a dear friend of mine named Josh Brahm. He has a commenting policy that I think you should read:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2/
He won't be happy when he sees his rules have not been followed but so far as I know he tries to be fair :(
He is a stickler for politeness and pleasant discourse on this subject.
Just curious about whether you comment at Live Action, and no, that's not to stalk you but because I wonder if guests are permitted. I tried writing to Live Action to see if they could permit guest commenting at least two months ago and as of yet there has been no reply. Do you know of any way I might reach them so they respond back quickly?
Thanks for coming here and I understand your suspicion, you're not to feel bad as it's worth being suspicious of the identity of everyone on the Internet in order to keep safe. I would never stalk anyone online either, it's bad manners.
Now to conversation time:
What do you think of this sad incident and do you personally believe prolife language is inflammatory when describing abortion and the people who do it?
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Infadelicious
guests commenting? I don't know about Live Action. I don't know if i have been on there, I may have followed a friend there, that's how i ended up here. I don't like staying long at pro life sites, i have grown tired of the nasty , though few in number of pro abortion people that show up to disrupt civil conversations and throw misogynistic insults like shifty and his buddy did and are still doing. I don't believe the pro lifers are responsible in any way for what happened at PP. Those with another agenda, used it and other horrendous acts to deflect away from pro life and some pro abortion people that shone a bright light on the disgusting baby parts for lambourghinis acts of PP workers. They deflected from that and pushed a anti gun agenda to boot.
I only dropped in to reply to a friend , i need to head out. I am glad i ran into you again.. Maybe i will come back another time to discuss when i have more time. Thanks for your civility.
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Crystal
Please stay on this site, and don't be afraid to come back here. Josh will not tolerate rudeness from either side. He is a kind and caring man and he wants people to reason rationally about the subject.
"I don't believe the pro lifers are responsible in any way for what
happened at PP. Those with another agenda, used it and other
horrendous acts to deflect away from pro life and some pro abortion
people that shone a bright light on the disgusting baby parts for
lambourghinis acts of PP workers. They deflected from that and pushed a
anti gun agenda to boot."
I agree that prolifers are not generally responsible for the shooting. In fact they came out and roundly condemned it. But I was informed by advocates for legal abortion that prolifers who condemn abortion and the people performing them yet refuse to be violent are inconsistent. I can understand when it comes to people but the action itself is worthy of condemnation.
Whether PP are selling or donating does not matter to me. They are in the wrong when they take the life of an innocent unborn person and place it under the guise of "health-care". I fail to see how it is healthcare to take another person's life away from them, despite my many discussions with advocates for legal abortion on the subject.
Anti-gun agenda? How did they do that one?
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, will bring you some philosophy I wrote up on the matter:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2389713979
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2393898255
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/why-pro-life-advocates-are-not-responsible-for-the-planned-parenthood-shooting/#comment-2387892637
You might find it of interest. Hoping you will have a good day and thanks for acknowledging me :)
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Crystal
Oh dear.
Josh has been away. I fear he will not be pleased when he reads the confounded mess his forum has become. I'll try to sort it out as much as I can to protect folks from being banned:
TRUMPET BLAST - ATTENTION FOLKS!
READ THIS BEFORE COMMENTING:
http://blog.equalrightsinstitute.com/comment-policy-2
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