@sarahconnors:disqus I saw a little arm and a hand. Did you not? I suppose the point here is that if enough violence was visited on your body - say you were dismembered and then dissected - then you wouldn't look very human either. The plain fact is that the unborn - whatever the stage of their development - is human, whole and distinct from their parents. I don't think you will find many people with a firm grasp of the arguments contesting this. (If they do then ask them to pick up an embryology text book. And if this is still a common misconception amongst the public then our efforts need to be redoubled.) Instead, what you will likely find is that people take the philosophical rout and denying that the unborn are persons based on some arbitrary metric like sentience. I dare say that some might even grant a major claim of the pro-life movement, i.e. the unborn are human persons, but remain utterly unmoved. These people are not the target audience. My own concern in all of this is that perhaps so much is being made of the story that PP have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar that people are likely to miss the forest for all the trees*. PP kill the unborn. That's it.
I'm pro-life, and I haven't watched the last video because I don't need graphic images in my brain. However, I have a feeling that the line "I think a per item thing works a little better, just because we can see how much we can get out of it" is going to be interpreted much differently by the pro-choice side. Won't they just say that the doctor wants to make sure there are enough usable organs to make the payment worth it for the buyer? Is it clear in the video whether the "how much" refers to money or number of organs? Playing devil's advocate, maybe PP is trying really hard not to rip off the buyer? Again, I haven't seen the whole context, so maybe it's more obvious than it appears.
The thing is, they aren't supposed to change the way they perform an abortion in order to get better specimens. Cecile Richards said publicly that they do not do this. The mom is supposed to be the only concern, so if they're changing the way the do abortions to keep the baby's organs in tact, it means they aren't doing everything to make sure the mother is safe. They're in a catch 22 with this one, I think. Either the line you mention means they're trying to make a profit or it means they're altering the procedure for medical research rather than for the health of the mother.
Lindsay, I am sure that many pro-choice advocates will make that argument. However, this isn't about "ripping off the buyer." In fact, the buyer's interests should be irrelevant to this discussion. As an imperfect comparison, a birth mother may be compensated by adoptive parents for medical expenses associated with pregnancy and childbirth; however, it is still unlawful to pay a birth parent to adopt their child. If the birth mother's medical expenses exceed the financial resources of the prospective adoptive parents, it should have no impact on the birth mother's decisions regarding her medical treatment. You cannot buy a baby. Similarly, an organization may be legally compensated for costs incurred in the process of procuring fetal tissue; however, there should be no consideration for the market rate. The costs are the costs. In some situations, the expenses incurred may be higher or lower than average, but those costs should be billed based on actual costs incurred.
I wholeheartedly agree with this comment. I found this video to be much less compelling than the others. Even the images weren't as startling as some are making them out to be-- and I see this as problematic. I know that there are those who found them horrifying, but if we are honest with ourselves there was almost nothing identifiable in the photos. This lends credence to the idea that a baby at 11 weeks is not human. I feel that pro-choice groups are going to be capable of spinning this one, and it may be to our detriment...
I think what bothered me most, is that the dish is essentially a good old oven dish, the kind I have in my kitchen cupboard right now. Meat... clearly distinguishable as a human arm and leg... in a dish we normally make food in. We make horror movies about this stuff.
I have taken many looks at these images- both still and in the context of the film. I hold fast to my previous assertions. What is presented is virtually unrecognizable. It looks like a bunch of tissue in a Petrie dish. I have worked as a pro-life activist for a long time. I blog for a major pro-life organization. And I believe this video does not hit the target like the other two do. We are attempting to change the hearts of people who are pro choice, and this video is not going to do that. After a day to think about it, there is even more to criticize. I am disappointed by this video-- this isn't PP making any negative statements. It's a "buyer" asking a leading question, and a doctor seemingly commenting on prices for parting out an unborn child.... but as of now, I haven't seen a long version of this particular video, so I don't know what the context was in her statement. If we want to "win" this debate (for want of a better word), we need to be critical of every effort made. If we open the door to any questions regarding the veracity of these videos it can ruin the entire effort.
I saw a little arm and a hand. Did you not?
I suppose the point here is that if enough violence was visited on your body - say you were dismembered and then dissected - then you wouldn't look very human either. The plain fact is that the unborn - whatever the stage of their development - is human, whole and distinct from their parents. I don't think you will find many people with a firm grasp of the arguments contesting this. (If they do then ask them to pick up an embryology text book. And if this is still a common misconception amongst the public then our efforts need to be redoubled.) Instead, what you will likely find is that people take the philosophical rout and denying that the unborn are persons based on some arbitrary metric like sentience. I dare say that some might even grant a major claim of the pro-life movement, i.e. the unborn are human persons, but remain utterly unmoved. These people are not the target audience.
My own concern in all of this is that perhaps so much is being made of the story that PP have been caught with their hand in the cookie jar that people are likely to miss the forest for all the trees*. PP kill the unborn. That's it.
http://www.centerformedicalprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/StemExpress-flyer.pdf
I found this video to be much less compelling than the others. Even the images weren't as startling as some are making them out to be-- and I see this as problematic. I know that there are those who found them horrifying, but if we are honest with ourselves there was almost nothing identifiable in the photos. This lends credence to the idea that a baby at 11 weeks is not human.
I feel that pro-choice groups are going to be capable of spinning this one, and it may be to our detriment...
This was an 11.6 wk fetus... you can clearly see the eyes, hand, foot... you might want to just take another look.
I hold fast to my previous assertions. What is presented is virtually unrecognizable. It looks like a bunch of tissue in a Petrie dish.
I have worked as a pro-life activist for a long time. I blog for a major pro-life organization. And I believe this video does not hit the target like the other two do.
We are attempting to change the hearts of people who are pro choice, and this video is not going to do that. After a day to think about it, there is even more to criticize.
I am disappointed by this video-- this isn't PP making any negative statements. It's a "buyer" asking a leading question, and a doctor seemingly commenting on prices for parting out an unborn child.... but as of now, I haven't seen a long version of this particular video, so I don't know what the context was in her statement.
If we want to "win" this debate (for want of a better word), we need to be critical of every effort made. If we open the door to any questions regarding the veracity of these videos it can ruin the entire effort.